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Haplogroup D in Sicily

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  • vraatyah
    replied
    Originally posted by mcvallone
    Hi Valery,

    My name is Michael, my mother is the Sicilian "D" you are discussing. You mentioned earlier that this D probably came from Turks. Where, geographically speaking, is the match you found in your database? In all the charts I have seen, it appears in such a low frequency in Asia Minor.

    Thank you for all of your help.

    Michael

    Hello Michael,

    it seems that Cacio already answered the question. I think, the knowledge of the Turkish mtdna is still poor and it's not possible to subdivide the Turkish population into portions which can differ in the amount of Central Asian influence. Feasible solutions:

    1) earliest admixture that predates Turks
    2) Karahanids era
    3) Osmans
    4) Recent slave trade
    5) local admixture in the Anatolian Turkmen tribes

    BTW, Albell just mentioned very intersting scenario which is not related to slavery directly though it's somewhat similar to the slave trade.


    Regards
    valery

    Leave a comment:


  • allbell
    replied
    Medieval Jews definitely had ties to India

    Originally posted by vraatyah
    Mike, it definitely makes sense that those Chinese matches are not exact. So, there is only a Turkish connection unless one points to Asian types with 16468 - regardless of the ultimate origin of D! Because there are no evidences of Central Asian/Far Eastern contacts in the Sicilian history
    A Cairo genizah (synagogue storage closet) has some records showing that Jewish merchants in Egypt were bringing Indian brides back to Egypt as early as the 1100s.

    One merchant who married an Indian woman, Abraham ben Yiju, had a daughter who went on to marry a Jewish guy in Sicily.

    See http://www.tau.ac.il/taunews/97spring/medieval.html

    Thoughts:

    - It could be that the haplogroup D testee described in the original post is actually a descendant of Abraham ben Yiju's wife, Ashu, and daughter.

    - It sounds as if Abraham ben Yiju's situation was unusual, but probably not unique. It could be that several other Indian women contributed their mtDNA to the Jewish gene pool through the same route.

    - If Abraham ben Yiju married a woman from India, and his daughter married a guy from Sicily, that seems to be evidence that Jewish merchants, at least, who lived around 1100 could have married women from any place in the world where ships and caravans traveled, and that those women could have ended up living thousands of miles from their birthplaces. If someone in Turkey, for example, has a type that resembles the type of the haplogroup D testee described in the original post, the Turkish individual might be descended from an Abraham ben Yiju who ended up in Turkey; from a daughter or other matrilineal descendant of the daughter who ended up in Sicily; or from another Asian woman who moved to the Middle East to marry some guy other than Abraham ben Yiju.

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    Valery will be more precise, however, I think the paper he was referring to is the following:
    Where West Meets East: The Complex mtDNA Landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian Corridor

    http://www.ajhg.org/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(07)64352-3

    though I don't think it says much about the observation, other than there are some Asian haplogroups in Turkey.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • mcvallone
    Guest replied
    Hi Valery,

    My name is Michael, my mother is the Sicilian "D" you are discussing. You mentioned earlier that this D probably came from Turks. Where, geographically speaking, is the match you found in your database? In all the charts I have seen, it appears in such a low frequency in Asia Minor.

    Thank you for all of your help.

    Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • vraatyah
    replied
    Eki, the Saami D5 is a very specific haplogroup even by its HVS1 look, while the EA D4 includes many clades with no indicative mutations in the HVSes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eki
    replied
    mtDNA-haplogroup D is also found on a low frequency throughout northeastern Europe, so maybe it got to Sicily with the Normans.

    Leave a comment:


  • rainbow
    replied
    I'm glad that was all sorted out. It seems that mtdna is much easier to decipher than admixture.

    I wish I knew if my NA is Amerind or Turkish.

    Leave a comment:


  • vraatyah
    replied
    Originally posted by MMaddi
    I had found no exact matches in either mitosearch or SMGF. The closest matches, with 174T, were to two of Chinese ancestry and one of Japanese ancestry.

    I had assumed that the 468 mutation was recent, since I could find no matches to it in D. Do you think the Turkish exact match makes it more likely that this Sicily Project member's ancestry is Turkish, not East Asian? Turkey is certainly closer to Sicily, geographically speaking.
    Mike, it definitely makes sense that those Chinese matches are not exact. So, there is only a Turkish connection unless one points to Asian types with 16468 - regardless of the ultimate origin of D! Because there are no evidences of Central Asian/Far Eastern contacts in the Sicilian history, we can expect only Mediterranean migrations and Turks are the most likely mediators of all possible distant connections such as East Asian ones.

    Valery

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by vraatyah
    Only one exact match:

    Quintana-Murci 2004
    Turks, 1/50
    174-223-362-468 (15997-16569)
    73 (1-200)
    -5176AluI +10394DdeI +10397AluI -10871MnlI -12703MboII
    D*

    There are about 100 published EA D sequences with 174-223-362, some of them were placed into D4h or D4j. Those sequenced up to 16468-th site (about 1/3) don't have the transition at this site - and at the same time, if the SMGF database contains such sequences, 16468C does exist in Asia and has not been "captured" by scientific publications.
    Valery,

    Many thanks.

    The exact match throws an entirely new light on the deep ancestry question. I had found no exact matches in either mitosearch or SMGF. The closest matches, with 174T, were to two of Chinese ancestry and one of Japanese ancestry.

    I had assumed that the 468 mutation was recent, since I could find no matches to it in D. Do you think the Turkish exact match makes it more likely that this Sicily Project member's ancestry is Turkish, not East Asian? Turkey is certainly closer to Sicily, geographically speaking.

    Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • vraatyah
    replied
    Only one exact match:

    Quintana-Murci 2004
    Turks, 1/50
    174-223-362-468 (15997-16569)
    73 (1-200)
    -5176AluI +10394DdeI +10397AluI -10871MnlI -12703MboII
    D*

    There are about 100 published EA D sequences with 174-223-362, some of them were placed into D4h or D4j. Those sequenced up to 16468-th site (about 1/3) don't have the transition at this site - and at the same time, if the SMGF database contains such sequences, 16468C does exist in Asia and has not been "captured" by scientific publications.

    Leave a comment:


  • rainbow
    replied
    Originally posted by MMaddi
    I'm not an expert on mtDNA, especially haplogroup D. But I'm fairly certain the Sicily Project haplogroup D family does not match Native American mtDNA haplotypes. And there are only three matches in the Asian D's. All have the rare mutation I mentioned above - 2 with Chinese ancestry and 1 with Japanese ancestry.

    I may be proven wrong, but I believe this family's maternal line deep ancestry is East Asian, probably Chinese.
    Okay. Sorry about that.
    Ever since my own AncestryByDna test I've been looking into all sorts of possiblities. I tend to think that nearly everyone I come across could have some Native American ancestry. I live in an area that is mostly Latin American. I think I saw at least 10 today. lol

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by rainbow
    I don't undertand mutations, but time-wise it is possible that the D mtdna family in your Sicily Project is descended from one of those first Indians taken to Seville, Spain in 1493. Or from one of the many thousands later on.

    I'm not an expert on mtDNA, especially haplogroup D. But I'm fairly certain the Sicily Project haplogroup D family does not match Native American mtDNA haplotypes. And there are only three matches in the Asian D's. All have the rare mutation I mentioned above - 2 with Chinese ancestry and 1 with Japanese ancestry.

    I may be proven wrong, but I believe this family's maternal line deep ancestry is East Asian, probably Chinese.

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    Mmaddi:

    I was quickly looking into a couple of papers.

    Native American of course is possible, as rainbow was saying, but Native A belong to a specific subgroup, and I don't think this sequence falls into the native american D1 (which have 16325). As vraatyah was pointing out, Eastern Europe (ie Russia, Poland, Czech rep, former Jugoslavia etc) has a detectable fraction of east asian haplogroups, perhaps 1%, so one obvious possibility is East Asia through Eastern Europe. And this could have happened a long time ago.

    Lee et al have a paper on Korea. What they define haplogroup D4h has 16174, so your sequence could fall into this haplogroup. (I think one needs full sequencing to find out one's D subhaplogroup). I haven't seen anything particular about D4h, but I don't know much about EA. In general, D is perhaps the most frequent haplogroup in EA, and it has lots of different branches.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • rainbow
    replied
    Originally posted by MMaddi
    A relatively new member tested through the Genographic Project and has joined the Sicily Project. Her haplogroup is D, which is very surprising. This haplogroup is mainly found among Native Americans and in Central and East Asia.

    Since this might have been a case of a maternal line that is Native American, not Sicilian, I asked the member to provide the Sicilian surnames and ancestral towns for the line. The relative who had his mother tested replied and gave me family tree information that indicated the maternal line had been in Sicily at least as far back as the early to mid 1800s. So there's no doubt that the recent ancestry of this line does not involve Native American ancestry.

    Here are the HVR1 mutations - 174T,223T,362C,468C - and the HVR2 mutations - 73G,263G,309.1C,315.1C,489C,573.1C.

    When the HVR1 mutations were only available, I searched in both the mitosearch and SMGF databases for any close matches. The first mutation, 174T, is rare. In mitosearch there is only one D with that mutation. That person has Japanese ancestry. In SMGF there are two close matches which have the 174T mutation, both with Chinese ancestry. The haplogroup is not given in SMGF, but since the other HVR1 mutations match, I believe these two Chinese ancestry people are also D.

    When the HVR2 mutations came in this past week, I repeated the search on both mitosearch and SMGF. Now there are no close matches showing up. I suppose this is because the 3 matches I mentioned in the last paragraph don't have HVR2 tested.

    The best explanation that I can come up with for this surprising result is that this maternal line may have originated in China and travelled over the Silk Road which was a major trade route during the Middle Ages. This maternal line ended up, via that route in Italy, or possibly directly in Sicily.

    Does anybody know of any results in scientific studies that match the HVR1/HVR2 mutations (especially 16174T) for this Sicily Project member? This family is very eager to find out more about their maternal line and where it may have come from long ago. I will pass on any information about that to them.


    I don't undertand mutations, but time-wise it is possible that the D mtdna family in your Sicily Project is descended from one of those first Indians taken to Seville, Spain in 1493. Or from one of the many thousands later on.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus

    quote from wikipedia: "Before returning to Spain, Columbus also kidnapped some ten to twenty-five Indians and took them back with him. Only seven or eight of the Indians arrived in Spain alive, but they made quite an impression on Seville.

    Columbus headed for Spain, but another storm forced him into Lisbon. He anchored next to the King's harbor patrol ship on March 4, 1493 in Portugal. After spending more than one week in Portugal, he set sail for Spain. He reached Spain on March 15, 1493. Word of his finding new lands rapidly spread throughout Europe."

    I wonder if some escaped while in Portugal.
    Last edited by rainbow; 10 March 2008, 11:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • vraatyah
    replied
    Hi Mike!


    I don't have my database at hand this minute, I'll list all the matches shortly after I see the data (I'm sure the EA matches do exist). I remember that there was at least one Sicilian EA type in the paper

    Continental and subcontinental distributions of mtdna control region types
    Forster et al 2001

    No clues where it is from (ultimately) and how recent it is.

    Leave a comment:

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