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  • Admixture or autosomal tests for percentages?

    I noticed some of the posters on this forum have had tests that break down their DNA into different percentages. Since I my ancestors are from several ethic groups and geographical regions, I'd like such a breakdown.

    I learned Gates, the Harvard prof, from the PBS special, learned his racial percentages through an admixture test. Also read on another site about autosomal testing.

    Can someone tell me what tests to order and where such testing can be done? Can FTDNA perform this type of test...I had my mtDNA results transferred here. BTW, how accurate are the results?

    Thanks again for your help, KCat

  • #2
    On your FTDNA results page, in the upper right is the section "order tests" there you select the "advanced orders"; you can select autosomal panel tests there. I don't believe any advanced orders come back from FTDNA since they've offered them yet, I think they send those autosomal tests off to DNAfingerprint.

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    • #3
      KCat,

      You didn't get many responses last night, and it could be because there has been much criticism of percentage-based testing.

      Notice how quiet this results log has been: http://www.kerchner.com/cgi-kerchner/dnaprint.cgi

      Personally I think those categories are too broad, and they beg questions which the test can't answer.

      I have learned a lot from another kind of testing, autosomal, which gives "match scores" rather than percentages. It can be hard to interpret, because this type of testing picks up on alleged matches which must be very ancient. Or wrong. And I always encourage people to check the reference populations before ordering. You won't get a match to any population (like English) which is not in the reference database yet. See http://www.dnatribes.com/populations.html

      Good luck in your research.

      Jim

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      • #4
        Admixture tests

        Thanks for the honest answer and the reference sites. It does seem there are many questions and some ongoing debate to consider before such testing. KCat

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        • #5
          AncestryByDNA 2.5 and Euro 1.0

          I personally, am very satisfied with my test results from AncestrybyDNA 2.5. and Euro 1.0., which uses autosomal dna. I do have documented Native American (Potowomecke) and European ancestry so this test adds more confirmation for me! But I did read where a person expected 59% Native American and got 0%. Needless to say, that person was very shocked and upset by the results!
          Maria

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          • #6
            Admixture test!

            Meant to say that it was an admixture test, giving percentages!
            Maria

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            • #7
              What does HVR2 results tell you?

              Maria, I tested with National Geographic, only got HRV1 results:

              mtDNA, 08C, 223T, 311C, 327T, placed in Hap L3*

              You have so many mutations, is that because with each test, more were uncovered?

              If I understand correctly, Cacio explained the more mutations/differences one has, the more distant one is from Europeans since the CRS was created in Europe. I'm not sure if my results are few because that's all they tested and I can get more info with different tests, or it's just my DNA.

              If autosomal testing shows percentages, what does HVR2 results tell you? If you do one, is it necessary to do both?

              Thanks for everyone's help. KCat

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              • #8
                My opinion of the autosomal tests have changed.

                I also did the swab test thru the genographic project, last year. My result was just 'H'. I happened to find my mutation by clicking around different areas of the result screen. I think it was 16519c, or something like that. I have no idea what that means. That would be HRV1, think.

                I was all for autosomal testing. In the spring I did the swab test for AncestryByDna, they do the 'percentages' test for 4 world categories. I was stunned that I got a 17% result for 'Native American'.

                My moms ABDNA had no 'Native American'. So that means my father would have to be 34% 'Native American', more or less. Many years ago I had to get a paternity test to prove my father was my father in order to get an order of filiation. He abandoned my mother when she was pregnant with me and came back only when she was giving birth to me and he named me and then abandoned us again. I was stuck with the name he gave me. My mom was afraid of him and really didn't track him down on my behalf. I had to find him on my own. When I was 20 I took him to court, family court. The test came back 99.97% that he was my father and I was granted an order of filiation from the court. I have since had a legal name change of my full name because I don't want his name. To me he is the most soul-less, evil person I have ever known or not known. He is a 'genius', but a sociopath (his half-sibling said my father is a sociopath). I hope that isn't genetic. I tried to get his name struck from my birth certificate but that state refuses to do that. I know my fathers geneaology, to some extent. His father was a Czech-American, that makes me 1/4 Czech. His NJ mother, is of Dutch & English descent. But, according to my results from ABDNA, she should be 64% Native American, more or less. Something is wrong there.
                Next, I did the swab test from DNATRIBES late last year and ordered the extended report New Years' Day 2007, which came with a free updated report. My DNATRIBES report is the wildest stuff I've ever read. It even tops Alice In Wonderland. I have no matches to Native Americans at all. The original 'Alaskan Athabaskan' match dropped below 1.0, to a non-match. And they gave me bizzarre matches to a lot of places around the globe, including West Polynesian. That makes no sense at all, unless the Native American group I descend from is a now-extinct (?) branch that came over from West Polynesia and not the Bering land bridge. DNATRIBES says I match Maori and Javanese and Pakistan and Mozambique and Dubai and Kathmandu, Nepal and Uyrghur 2 from Chinese Turkestan, etc.
                Lou from ABDNA said he's of Italian descent and also has a Native American result, even tho he has no American Indian ancestry. ABDNA's 'Native American' is not reliable. The markers they use to determine 'Native American' are also found in Italy, Greece, and Turkey. My 17% Native American may alternately indicate that I have 17% ancient Roman or ancient Greek ancestry.
                I looked at the DNATRIBES profile for American Indians. The map shows 'dots' across the Americas AND 'dots' in Greece and a coastal section of southern China and 'dots' in Finland and a 'dot' in Iceland. Some American Indians have Icelandic ancestry?!?
                I found that the ancient Greeks did travel by boat to the tip of Africa and they knew there was another ocean on the other side of Africa. To me, there is a good chance that people from both sides travelled between America (South America) and Greece/Aegean. Greeks getting their autosomal done test as part Native American, as do Italians.
                As of now, I am doubtful that my 17% Native American result from ABDNA is a true reflection of my genepool or bloodline. It may just come from my English ancestors who had Roman ancestry. Another history lesson, the ancient Greeks lived in southern Italy too, and mixed, and then the Romans mixed with most of Western Europe, including the British Isles. I wish there was more emphasis on the autosomal testing in the British Isles. I would like to see an autosomal study of present day Brits using both DNATRIBES and AncestryByDna. What about the people from the small English town that did the swab test for the delta32 test (the anti-Black Plague/AIDS gene found in England and other parts of Europe)? They could also be the 'England' match needed for DNATRIBES.
                Is the AncestryByDna test used by Americans really accurate? What if it turns out that those English people also get a Native American result? Or a Mozambique or Maori result? I'd like to compare their results to mine. Is the test truly reliable or a waste of money that messes with your head. I can imagine the conflict/confusion created for someone who was adopted and has no other means to find out who/what they are. What an awful head trip.
                I am skeptical of the autosomal tests. I need more proof.
                Last edited by rainbow; 21 February 2007, 04:32 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by KCat
                  ...
                  Can someone tell me what tests to order and where such testing can be done? Can FTDNA perform this type of test...I had my mtDNA results transferred here. BTW, how accurate are the results?
                  ...

                  Here are my two reasons for choosing DNATribes over DNAPrint (AbDNA 2.5/Euro 1.0) -

                  1) With Tribes you get your actual lab results back, DNAP doesn't disclose the SNP's they sampled, so, with Tribes you can research your alleles on Omnipop and ENFSI and other sites and reach your own conclusions. With DNAP you are stuck with their conclusions.

                  2) Because the autosomal STR's that are the basis of the Tribes test are also widely employed in forensics, there is steady stream of new population studies being released. Tribes regularly adds to their population db and Omnipop just updated with 50+ additional populations. In contrast, DNAP has to pay to expand their population data and they have been very slow to update.

                  FTDNA offer an Autosomal Panel 1 that has all the markers that Tribes and Omnipop use. FTDNA's Autosomal Panel 2 includes the two markers needed for full ENFSI compliance and others that can be researched on ALFRED or the Uni-Duesseldorf site.

                  As this area is very much a 'work-in-progress' I suggest anyone interested invest for the long term and spring for the two FTDNA panels. Then research your alleles on the free Omnipop and online db's. For $100 more you can get a reading from Tribes on the thirteen they employ and thereafter Tribes updates cost $25. I also strongly suggest an update be done via the Tribes Extended Report that is a multi-page match to every population in the Tribe db.

                  There are several threads on DNA and Genealogy page of this forum concerned with autosomal testing and independent research. The cheapest way to get started to to read what is posted there. The DNA-Fingerprint site has all Web Links to External Databases and a brief tutorial on allele incidence research (www.dna-fingerprint.com). The Kirchner 'gripe site' for Tribes results is www.dnatribeslog.org - another interesting 'read.'

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KCat
                    ...
                    BTW, how accurate are the results?
                    ...
                    All results are 100% 'accurate', the question is whether they are 'useful' for genealogical purposes, or can be construed in some manner so as to yield genealogically-useful information.

                    'Profile matching,' the statistical scheme that is the basis of ENFSI, Omnipop and Tribes, merely matches the profile of the person, whose allelic profile is entered, to world populations in a database. Sometimes the closest profile match is to a population genealogically-unrelated to the person whose allelic profile was entered. And because 'profile matching' is not 'admixture mapping' it can be challenging, absent genealogical fact, to infer even the ancestries of the parents of the person profiled.

                    If all your forebears were of the same tribe and always married within that tribe you might expect to get high scores to that tribe if that tribe is part of the database queried. If your parents were of two different tribes your profile, that is a composite of theirs, may pull odd matches. And if the admixture in your genealogy has been going-on for several generations, the matches may be quite odd.

                    As is apparent in this thread, the response of those tested is predicated both on their understanding of the test taken and their expectations as to outcomes. If expectations are not aligned with the limitations of the technology anger and disappointment will be the result.

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                    • #11
                      Raibow said: Is the test truly reliable or a waste of money that messes with your head.

                      I am inclined to think that it is a waste of money that messes with your head.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by juan carlos
                        Raibow said: Is the test truly reliable or a waste of money that messes with your head.

                        I am inclined to think that it is a waste of money that messes with your head.
                        But is the 'mess' in the test or in your head?

                        Tribes test performs exactly as advertised. May not be based on a statistical methodology especially useful for 'your' purposes, but is based on an industry-standard, public-domain methodology that has governmental support on two continents.

                        You got something better?

                        Hope you do.
                        Last edited by tomcat; 11 March 2007, 09:42 PM.

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                        • #13
                          All results are not 100% accurate i got 85% european 13% east asian and 2% Sub-Saharan African & guess what my father got 85% european and 15% native american so there doing something wrong

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by msc_44
                            All results are not 100% accurate i got 85% european 13% east asian and 2% Sub-Saharan African & guess what my father got 85% european and 15% native american so there doing something wrong
                            It does look like there is some misinformation about the difference between East Asian and Native American.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by msc_44
                              All results are not 100% accurate i got 85% european 13% east asian and 2% Sub-Saharan African & guess what my father got 85% european and 15% native american so there doing something wrong
                              What are the AbDNA results for your mother?

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