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Possible Jewish "status"?

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  • khazaria
    replied
    Originally posted by KATM View Post
    If you are primarily interested in knowing if your mtDNA ancestor was Jewish, then you should do the upgrade to Full Sequence to determine if your subclade of V is one that is known to be Jewish.
    Most of the Ashkenazic branches of V are not originally Jewish. Evidence suggests that Ashkenazim obtained V1a1, V7a, V7b, and V18a from European converts to Judaism. V15 is less clear-cut.

    As for V21, that is not been decisively proven to be an Ashkenazic haplogroup yet.

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  • TomBenNoah
    replied
    Thank you Sir.

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  • KATM
    replied
    So yes, the question would be, what is the possibility of a female ancestor since roughly that time with one of my 14 Jewish "cousins".
    The short answer is, it is possible, but it depends upon the level of testing you and the match have taken, because the Full Sequence matches are much more likely to be related within a genealogical timeframe.

    Your mtDNA came from a long-ago woman, who passed down her V mtDNA haplogroup to her daughter, and all that daughter's daughters through the ages, until it got to your mother, who passed it to you. Some of those direct matrilineal ancestors lived since 1313 BCE (or the appropriate date). If you test to refine your basic V haplogroup to find if it is one of the subclades of V that are known to be Jewish, then you should have a common ancestor with some of your mtDNA matches who have a Jewish origin. The trick is, are they related within a genealogical timeframe, meaning can you find records to determine who the common ancestor was?
    • If you are interested in finding the connection to a mtDNA match, you should research your mother, maternal grandmother, and as many direct matrilineal great-grandmothers before them as you can, plus their female siblings and their descendants, so you will be able to see where the connection is to a match. A Full Sequence match is much more likely to be related in a genealogical timespan* (see below)
    • If you are primarily interested in knowing if your mtDNA ancestor was Jewish, then you should do the upgrade to Full Sequence to determine if your subclade of V is one that is known to be Jewish.
    From your "mtDNA - Haplogroup Origins" .pdf, I see 12 matches at the HVR1 level, and 1 at the HVR1 and HVR2 level, who show a Jewish ethnic group name in the comments. Anything in the comments is from the person who tested, or someone who manages that account, so we are taking their word for what they know of their earliest direct maternal line ancestor's origins. It is not something that FTDNA has determined through testing; the haplogroup or subclade is from FTDNA.

    The person at the HVR1 and HVR2 level who has the known Jewish mtDNA subclade of V1a1, and shows Poland in the comments, is likely one of the 2 matches at the HVR1 only level that listed Poland in the comments. While the other 12 (or 13 if I missed one) match you, the match is so distant that it is extremely unlikely you would find a common ancestor. Even that match at the HVR1 and HVR2 level may or may not continue to match you if you upgrade to the Full Sequence test.

    *You can check the chart on the "mtDNA (Maternal Lineage) Tests" page in the FTDNA Learning Center, to see the generations to common ancestor at each level of mtDNA testing; the Full Sequence test has the best estimate for having a common ancestor within a genealogical timespan, although even that is generally optimistic. The HVR1, and HVR1 and HVR2 levels indicate a connection before a genealogical timespan, so it would usually be much harder, if not impossible, to determine the connection.

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  • TomBenNoah
    replied
    So, for example, if we presume you have one of the Jewish mtDNA subclades within haplogroup V, would it be fair to say that as long as one of your long-ago most distant matrilineal ancestors was born after 1313 BCE, it doesn't matter if her haplogroup came into being long before her birth?
    Yes, anybody born from a Jewish mother after the sealing of the covenant with God is considered to be Jewish before "Halacha" (the Jewish "church" law).

    To be fair I am not sure about 1313 BCE (this is just the year that chabad.org lists as the year of the giving of the Torah at Mt Sinai). But the entire people "converted" at the time of the covenant.

    So yes, the question would be, what is the possibility of a female ancestor since roughly that time with one of my 14 Jewish "cousins".

    (This is of course all in a religious understanding only.)




    Last edited by TomBenNoah; 22 June 2021, 12:19 AM.

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  • KATM
    replied
    Thank you, I didn't know that about Jewish law.

    So, for example, if we presume you have one of the Jewish mtDNA subclades within haplogroup V, would it be fair to say that as long as one of your long-ago most distant matrilineal ancestors was born after 1313 BCE, it doesn't matter if her haplogroup came into being long before her birth?

    Unless you end up with a relatively recently-formed subclade that has come into existence since 1313 BCE (say within the Iron or Roman Ages), your actual most distant matrilineal ancestor was likely born many thousands of years before then. In the long line of whatever mtDNA haplogroup you do have, there have been many generations of women in your direct maternal line who have been born since 1313 BCE. It's a rare person who can trace any line back before 1000 CE, much less two thousand years before that.

    If you do eventually upgrade to the Full Sequence test, and you get one of the known V subclades associated with Jewish mtDNA (V1a1, V7a, V7b, V15, V18a, and V21), then you can figure out the estimated age for it by searching for it at Haplogroup.org, or searching for scientific papers for that haplogroup and subclade.


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  • TomBenNoah
    replied
    Hi, thanks. I got V only.

    1313 BC is the year of Mt Sinai according to Jewish law. Any mother before that does not count.
    Last edited by TomBenNoah; 21 June 2021, 02:23 PM.

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  • KATM
    replied
    From your Haplogroup Origins .pdf, we can see that you have not done the mtDNAFullSequence test. What haplogroup did you get from your mtDNAPlus test? Was it simply V, or a subclade of V?

    If you look at the page "Catalogue of mtdna Jewish branches," near the bottom is a list of known Jewish mtDNA haplogroups. For haplogroup V, the following subclades are listed: V1a1, V7a, V7b, V15, V18a, and V21. You have one match for HVR1 and HVR2 which shows V1a1, but the others at that level are all possible for you as well, including V11. Having more matches with V11 may mean that it is possibly your full mtDNA haplogroup, or it may mean more people who are V11 have tested. The only way to be sure of your full mtDNA haplogroup is to upgrade to the mtDNAFullSequence test. You may want to join an mtDNA Haplogroup project, such as the V mtDNA Project, to get advice from the project administrators there.

    mtDNA usually goes back thousands of years, so your subclade could easily have originated back beyond 1313 BC, whether via a Jewish matrilineal ancestor or non-Jewish.

    You didn't ask, but as a side note while I'm at it, in case others don't realize this: your matches who identified with Country of Origin as "United States (Native American)" actually chose the wrong name, as the known Native American mtDNA haplogroups are A, B, C, D, and X (some subclades) and possibly some in the M haplogroup, but do not include haplogroup V or any others. Many people choose "United States (Native American)" for Country of Origin because they haven't gone back far enough in their genealogy to determine the country that their immigrant matrilineal ancestor came from. "Native American" really means the indigenous people of North or South America, who were in the U.S. thousands of years before any colonists or settlers, so choosing that Country of Origin name is not appropriate in such cases. Those matches who do not have a Native American haplogroup should choose either "United States" or "Unknown Origin" vs. "United States (Native American)."

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  • TomBenNoah
    started a topic Possible Jewish "status"?

    Possible Jewish "status"?

    Hello

    I am sharing with you my "Ancestral" and "Haplogroup" origins pages.

    My Haplogroup is quite possibly V11.

    What are my chances of having had at least one maternal Jewish ancestor since 1313 BC?

    Your help is well appreciated!

    Thanks,
    Thomas


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