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Is U5 Anglo and K Saxon?

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  • Jambalaia32
    started a topic Is U5 Anglo and K Saxon?

    Is U5 Anglo and K Saxon?

    Many nations have more than one haplogroup dwelling in their land,usually groups associated with them. So my question is are there other haplogroups affiliated with Germany besides MtK? Of course I think there are, but no one comes out and says so. For instance I noticed that many people in FamilyTree's German Group have the DNA haplogroup MtU. MtU5 is most common in the Sweden and Scandanavian regions-so I'm thinking maybe they are the Angles of old Angle-Saxon lore.Maybe MtK are the Saxons.
    Now what if MtK isn't from Germany? Where are they from then? I know they don't all live there now,but they do live in other lands occupied by Europeans like Australia.
    I'll simplify.The head of FamilyT. told me that MtK is from the German/Austria area.But I don't see any evidence of that-of course MtK is a very reticent bunch and they don't say where they came from or where they are now,and how. Are the U's I see in Germany some of the Germanic peoples that are similar to MtK or are they foreigners that live in Germany??

  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    link to Ian Logan

    Here is the link to Ian Logan's website:

    http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/mtdna.htm

    Ciao!

    Leave a comment:


  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    U mytsries

    I get the impression that (my) U5b2 originated in the Western Med area, before many of them migrated northward after the big melt (less than 10,000 years ago). And maybe haplogroup U5a originated in southern Russia, etc., and many of them migrated northwestward, before retreating down to the Western Med area; the U5b1 & 2 emerging from that western batch of U5a before the big melt.

    I notice a recent "U" on the Kerchner website, that I found by looking at Ian Logan's website was U5a, that it is quite similar to mine (HVR1 & 2). Mine has 3 fewer mutations in HVR1 and one more mutation in HVR2. That person was from Italy (Ladina or similar). And U5b2 is represented in Sardinia. As far asI know, my own maternal U5b2 line is either from the UK or Germany.

    http://www.kerchner.com/cgi-kerchner/mtdna.cgi

    U5b2 (16270T & 16519C); (73G, 150T, 228A, 263G, 309.1C & 315.1C)

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  • byakhee_2001
    replied
    Originally posted by Jambalaia32
    Well, you know anciently the Angles and Saxons hung out together,and so did the Jutes from Denmark.Like,they all floated over to Britain from N.Germany in 400AD,and like ,I saw lots of Mt U's on the German Maternal Page and I just wondered were they the Angles from Sweden.Are they some of the corresponding people of Germany or are they a bunch of unrelated folks that dwell there? That's what I'm trying to figure out.Are they the Angles and we're the Saxons? Remember this is ancestral,not that I actually call Swedes Angles,but hey,you could if they are.
    Yes read this post:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/s...0&page=1&pp=10

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    U5a1a - Saxon or Norman? (in the last 1,500 years)

    Is there a U5a1a connection with French/German mainland Europeans - that were likely to have migrated into the UK (maybe during Norman conquest, or even earlier in the 5 century from Saxons)?

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Here is interesting new that you probably know about already. As far as I know they have not extracted DNA from these bones and teeth’s.

    The first modern men to Europe seems to have been in the regions of Kostenski for about 45000 years ago, about 350 kilometres south of Moscow according to this article. So far they have found some teeth and remains after sewn clothing of animal skins, stones, bones, and ornaments made with shells of molluscs and a piece of ivory of a mammoth with a carving that seems to be a human figure.

    Scroll down the page in the URL and you can see some tools that are found and is probably the oldest find of modern humans in Europe. Simple animal traps are also found in near Don.

    http://lithos-perigord.org/spip.php?article253

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by vraatyah
    Please, look at the samples published within last 10 years. Russians (N=1026) have about 10% of U5 with high diversity. Germans (N = 1660) have 9% with a diversity comparable to that of Russians. In Norway (N=650, without Saami) the frequency is about 12% and diversity is lower than in Germans. In Finland (N>600, without Saami) the frequency reaches 20% and the diversity is more than twice lower than that of Germans-Russians, and this remains correct even we subtract all U5b1b1 variants from the sample.
    This is interesting Vraatyah, so U5 may in fact have developed in areas of northern Europe that includes present Russia and Germany. Probably Gravettian culture about 30000 years back in time could have been of U5 people. I also wonder if large migrations of people with H, J and T and other younger mtDNA haplogroups can explain why U5 is more frequent in north and northeastern part of Europe (where the climate has not been very favourable for agriculture). Farming people from the Middle East seems to have outnumbered the early hunter and gatherers.

    Martin Richards et.al. 2000 have estimated the age of U5 to be between 45,100–52,800 years old in Europe. Haplogroup mtDNA U that the U5 people developed from also seem to be older in Europe than in the Middle East and the estimated age is 53,600–58,900 years BP.

    However since U5 is so very widely spread inside Europe the different subgroups must have developed in different locations and U5a seems to be older than U5b if I have understood it correctly.

    It seems that the age of U5b1 is between 10.000-15.000 years. Do you know of some studies that have estimated the age of U5b and U5a?

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  • Haganus
    replied
    origin of the Angles and Saxons

    An question asks my attention. From where did the Angles and
    Saxons come originally? Maybe from Sweden? On the southwest
    coast of Sweden there exist Angerland.
    Perhaps the Angles and Saxons came like the Goths from Sweden
    too before their departure from Jutland to Britain?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    U5a1a - People

    I have found that U5a1a members of my project DNA Project: Nordic-Celtic - U5a1a - people are found among these peoples/cultures below:-

    Irish, Scottish Gaelic
    English Anglo-Saxon
    English Anglo-Saxon
    English Anglo-Saxon
    Scottish Gaelic
    English Anglo-Saxon
    Scottish Anglo Norman
    Welsh ancient Brythonic Celts of Wales
    English, German Norman French
    Scottish Norman
    English Anglo-Saxon
    Scottish Gaelic
    English Anglo-Saxon Old Danish
    German
    French
    English, Irish Anglo-Saxon
    English Old English
    French
    English, French, German Norman
    English, Welsh Old German
    Scottish
    Dutch-Alt, Dutch, English, French, German Anglo-Saxon
    Scottish Norman

    I believe U5a1a members came into Sicily via Normans. It makes sense - when this membership is found among Northern Europeans.

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  • cacio
    replied
    PDHOTLEN and J-Man:

    I think that, in terms of tree (though not about the exact timing), the U situation is clear, as PDHOTLEN was saying. U is characterized (relative to R) by three mutations. Then at the root of U there are 4 branches. One is the first group you said, which shares one (but only one) coding region mutation. The other three branches are U1, U5 and U6 (these are separate branches at the root). Hence the split between these 4 must have happened very early, right near the origin of U, which is estimated by Achilli at around 60,000 years ago. The most recent common ancestor for all U5 is estimated at around 40,000 years ago.

    Unfortunately, the Achilli paper doesn't provide an estimate for the other subhaplogroups. I counted around 9 mutations from the root of U to K,
    so that implies quite some time.

    I don' t know of any particular recent paper about U after the Achilli paper. There was a paper (Olivieri 2007) about U6 which drew a parallel between U5 and U6, saying that both seem to have been the first, early haplogroups to migrate west, U5 into Europe and U6 into N Africa. This second paper estimates the age of U6 as 45,000 years.

    cacio

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    Sammi & Berber chart

    I wasn't really expecting a direct reply. But according to the chart in the paper showing the various branches of haplogroup "U", the various U branches first split into two groups: U2, U3, U4, U7, U8 & U9; the other group includes U1, U5 & U6. The various branches further broke down over time into sub-groups, one of which was haplogroup K.

    But maybe that has been revised by this time; The paper was published in 2005.

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
    Looking at a chart in the Saami & Berber paper (2005), it shows haplogroup K breaking off from haplogroup U8. That must've been back around 30,000 years ago or even more. Recalling maps, such as Genographic, it seems like that may have happened in central Europe. Then, at the height of the Ice Age, haplogroup K retreated down to Italy. After the big melt, some moved up the Danube & tributaries, whiile others of the K group moved up thru France & on to England, etc. Still others stayed in Italy.

    Well, that's my current scenario.

    If K broke off from U8 when did U8 and U5 break apart?

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    Origins of K

    Looking at a chart in the Saami & Berber paper (2005), it shows haplogroup K breaking off from haplogroup U8. That must've been back around 30,000 years ago or even more. Recalling maps, such as Genographic, it seems like that may have happened in central Europe. Then, at the height of the Ice Age, haplogroup K retreated down to Italy. After the big melt, some moved up the Danube & tributaries, whiile others of the K group moved up thru France & on to England, etc. Still others stayed in Italy.

    Well, that's my current scenario.

    Leave a comment:


  • vraatyah
    replied
    Originally posted by Jambalaia32
    I'm serious -Isn't U5 the Haplogroup of Sweden?
    Please, look at the samples published within last 10 years. Russians (N=1026) have about 10% of U5 with high diversity. Germans (N = 1660) have 9% with a diversity comparable to that of Russians. In Norway (N=650, without Saami) the frequency is about 12% and diversity is lower than in Germans. In Finland (N>600, without Saami) the frequency reaches 20% and the diversity is more than twice lower than that of Germans-Russians, and this remains correct even we subtract all U5b1b1 variants from the sample. There is a very limited number of published Swedish sequences. According to K.Tambets' report (which I listened to, I don't have a printed copy) the frequency of U5 in Swedes seems to be comparable to the Norse one, this author collected more than 500 samples, those results were also partially published in their 2004 y Saami paper. So, the frequency value we are interested in can be approximated by the Norse and Finnish bounds, and probably the same is correct for the diversity. More generally, the Nei diversity (which is just the probability for 2 random individuals to have distinct haplotypes) constantly decreases in South - North direction because people living in the severe Northern climate usually form groups of a smaller size.

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Jambalaia32
    I'm serious -Isn't U5 the Haplogroup of Sweden? And U6 is Berber the originator of the Caucasian Race in North Africa. I don't mean does U5 LOOK Swedish I mean ARE they Authentically Swedish?

    Going by looks only would give no validation to having genetic Dna. Which states as a fact that you match a certain country or not.

    No U5 is not the only haplogroup of Sweden and it most likely did not originate there. There weren't even people in Sweden when U5 originated which was around 45,000 years ago. If anything U5 people are authentically European. U6 is high among the Berbers especially in Algeria from what I have read.

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