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Is U5 Anglo and K Saxon?

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  • Is U5 Anglo and K Saxon?

    Many nations have more than one haplogroup dwelling in their land,usually groups associated with them. So my question is are there other haplogroups affiliated with Germany besides MtK? Of course I think there are, but no one comes out and says so. For instance I noticed that many people in FamilyTree's German Group have the DNA haplogroup MtU. MtU5 is most common in the Sweden and Scandanavian regions-so I'm thinking maybe they are the Angles of old Angle-Saxon lore.Maybe MtK are the Saxons.
    Now what if MtK isn't from Germany? Where are they from then? I know they don't all live there now,but they do live in other lands occupied by Europeans like Australia.
    I'll simplify.The head of FamilyT. told me that MtK is from the German/Austria area.But I don't see any evidence of that-of course MtK is a very reticent bunch and they don't say where they came from or where they are now,and how. Are the U's I see in Germany some of the Germanic peoples that are similar to MtK or are they foreigners that live in Germany??

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jambalaia32
    Many nations have more than one haplogroup dwelling in their land,usually groups associated with them. So my question is are there other haplogroups affiliated with Germany besides MtK? Of course I think there are, but no one comes out and says so. For instance I noticed that many people in FamilyTree's German Group have the DNA haplogroup MtU. MtU5 is most common in the Sweden and Scandanavian regions-so I'm thinking maybe they are the Angles of old Angle-Saxon lore.Maybe MtK are the Saxons.
    Now what if MtK isn't from Germany? Where are they from then? I know they don't all live there now,but they do live in other lands occupied by Europeans like Australia.
    I'll simplify.The head of FamilyT. told me that MtK is from the German/Austria area.But I don't see any evidence of that-of course MtK is a very reticent bunch and they don't say where they came from or where they are now,and how. Are the U's I see in Germany some of the Germanic peoples that are similar to MtK or are they foreigners that live in Germany??
    Me, I'm from TN and live in VA. Seriously, if you look at the map on the K Project website you will see the top three countries listed for ancestors' European origins are the United Kingdom, Germany, and Belarus. There is no way you generalize K's as Saxon. See below the chart under the mtDNA Results tab at http://www.familytreedna.com/mtDNA_K/

    Bill Hurst

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    • #3
      Who are U's to Us? Angles to our Saxons?

      Well, you know anciently the Angles and Saxons hung out together,and so did the Jutes from Denmark.Like,they all floated over to Britain from N.Germany in 400AD,and like ,I saw lots of Mt U's on the German Maternal Page and I just wondered were they the Angles from Sweden.Are they some of the corresponding people of Germany or are they a bunch of unrelated folks that dwell there? That's what I'm trying to figure out.Are they the Angles and we're the Saxons? Remember this is ancestral,not that I actually call Swedes Angles,but hey,you could if they are.

      Comment


      • #4
        The 5000 year old mummy they found in the Alps between Austria and Italy was of mtHg K:

        http://www.isogg.org/ancientdna.htm

        Comment


        • #5
          Great Site

          Originally posted by Eki
          The 5000 year old mummy they found in the Alps between Austria and Italy was of mtHg K:

          http://www.isogg.org/ancientdna.htm
          Thanks.I've seen this site before but it's good to be kept up to date.As for the iceman,I had heard of him before I knew I was in his haplogroup.But I can't believe they didn't know MtHg K existed until Oetzi was discovered.Any tests of regular people would reveal a K someplace, I'm sure.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Eki
            The 5000 year old mummy they found in the Alps between Austria and Italy was of mtHg K:

            http://www.isogg.org/ancientdna.htm
            A few years ago I calculated that Oetzi was my 500th cousin, 250 times removed.

            Bill Hurst

            Comment


            • #7
              I have to agree: U5 = Anglo/Danish - Saxon/Nth German

              I have to agree: U5 = Anglo/Danish - Saxon/Nth German

              I'm a U5 and R1b European from Italy, Sicily:

              Invasion and conquest of Italy in 560 AD: Lombards, Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons...

              History:

              Invasion and conquest of Italy in 560 AD:

              In the spring of 568, Alboin led the Lombards, together with other Germanic tribes; (Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons) and Bulgars, across the Julian Alps with a population of around 400,000 to 500,000, to invade northern Italy. The first important city to fall was Forum Iulii (Cividale del Friuli), in northeastern Italy, in 569. There, Alboin created the first Lombard duchy, which he entrusted to his nephew Gisulf. Soon Vicenza, Verona, and Brescia fell into Germanic hands. In the summer of 569, the Lombards conquered the main Roman centre of northern Italy, Milan. The area was then recovering from the terrible Gothic Wars, and the small Byzantine army left for its defence could do almost nothing. The Exarch sent to Italy by Emperor Justinian II, Longinus, could defend only coastal cities that could be supplied by the powerful Byzantine fleet. Pavia fell after a siege of three years, in 572, becoming the first capital city of the new Lombard kingdom of Italy. In the following years, the Lombards penetrated further south, conquering Tuscany and establishing two duchies, Spoleto and Benevento under Zotto, which soon became semi-independent and even outlasted the northern kingdom, surviving well into the 12th century. The Byzantines managed to retain control of the area of Ravenna and Rome, linked by a thin corridor running through Perugia.

              This is probably why there are many R1b1c/R1b1c9a’s in Italy that also went through to Sicily much later in the 11th century.

              This also could be why - there are many exact matches in the UK and among many R1b1c Italians - we are all related closely to the Saxons of the Middle Ages. We were at some point (about 100 BC) - Northern Germanic clansmen.

              Italy, 962–1300 > Italy under the Saxon emperors

              Saxons in Italy:

              Second half of the 10th century, Italy began a slow recovery from the turmoils of late Carolingian Europe. During the previous century the Po River valley had been exposed to Magyar raiders. Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily had fallen to the Muslims; even Rome had felt their threat. In the north the Lombard kingdom was little more than a collection of great lordships vying with one another for the Carolingian inheritance. In the south the peninsula was shared by the remnants of the Byzantine and Lombard states and by local powers. The 10th-century papacy had fallen into the hands of various Roman aristocratic factions. But already there were signs of revival. Genoa, Pisa, and Venice were joining other cities in developing local and international trade. In Germany the last of the East Frankish Carolingians had died, and in 911 Conrad I of Franconia became king, to be succeeded in 919 by the energetic Henry the Fowler, duke of Saxony and founder of the Saxon dynasty of German emperors. In France the Carolingians yielded to the Capetians before the century was out. In the monasteries of Burgundy and Lorraine a new spirit of religious reform arose, which reached outward to the whole of Latin Europe and soon influenced the rich monastic traditions of Italy.

              The ancient Anglo-Saxons from Germany - populated Italy and UK - hence we have exact matches from Italy and UK (R1b1c/R1b1c9a).

              Comment


              • #8
                Whatever

                Originally posted by Bill Hurst
                Me, I'm from TN and live in VA. Seriously, if you look at the map on the K Project website you will see the top three countries listed for ancestors' European origins are the United Kingdom, Germany, and Belarus. There is no way you generalize K's as Saxon. See below the chart under the mtDNA Results tab at http://www.familytreedna.com/mtDNA_K/

                Bill Hurst
                God, you're vague Bill.I mean c'mon Mt K doesn't hail from TN .That's where you migrated to after hundreds of years,but originally people Of Europe were called Angles,Saxons,and Jutes...up in the North and many other tribes of Europe exist too,but they all require study to name and detail. And except for this DNA ,they weren't exactly named or studied.
                I'm not being extremely picky ,I just wondered if they (scientists and researchers ,amateur or professional) knew which modern day people were some of the ancient day tribes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  U5

                  Originally posted by johnraciti
                  I have to agree: U5 = Anglo/Danish - Saxon/Nth German

                  I'm a U5 and R1b European from Italy, Sicily:

                  Invasion and conquest of Italy in 560 AD: Lombards, Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons...

                  History:

                  Invasion and conquest of Italy in 560 AD:

                  In the spring of 568, Alboin led the Lombards, together with other Germanic tribes; (Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons) and Bulgars, across the Julian Alps with a population of around 400,000 to 500,000, to invade northern Italy. The first important city to fall was Forum Iulii (Cividale del Friuli), in northeastern Italy, in 569. There, Alboin created the first Lombard duchy, which he entrusted to his nephew Gisulf. Soon Vicenza, Verona, and Brescia fell into Germanic hands. In the summer of 569, the Lombards conquered the main Roman centre of northern Italy, Milan. The area was then recovering from the terrible Gothic Wars, and the small Byzantine army left for its defence could do almost nothing. The Exarch sent to Italy by Emperor Justinian II, Longinus, could defend only coastal cities that could be supplied by the powerful Byzantine fleet. Pavia fell after a siege of three years, in 572, becoming the first capital city of the new Lombard kingdom of Italy. In the following years, the Lombards penetrated further south, conquering Tuscany and establishing two duchies, Spoleto and Benevento under Zotto, which soon became semi-independent and even outlasted the northern kingdom, surviving well into the 12th century. The Byzantines managed to retain control of the area of Ravenna and Rome, linked by a thin corridor running through Perugia.

                  This is probably why there are many R1b1c/R1b1c9a’s in Italy that also went through to Sicily much later in the 11th century.

                  This also could be why - there are many exact matches in the UK and among many R1b1c Italians - we are all related closely to the Saxons of the Middle Ages. We were at some point (about 100 BC) - Northern Germanic clansmen.

                  Italy, 962–1300 > Italy under the Saxon emperors

                  Saxons in Italy:

                  Second half of the 10th century, Italy began a slow recovery from the turmoils of late Carolingian Europe. During the previous century the Po River valley had been exposed to Magyar raiders. Sardinia, Corsica, and Sicily had fallen to the Muslims; even Rome had felt their threat. In the north the Lombard kingdom was little more than a collection of great lordships vying with one another for the Carolingian inheritance. In the south the peninsula was shared by the remnants of the Byzantine and Lombard states and by local powers. The 10th-century papacy had fallen into the hands of various Roman aristocratic factions. But already there were signs of revival. Genoa, Pisa, and Venice were joining other cities in developing local and international trade. In Germany the last of the East Frankish Carolingians had died, and in 911 Conrad I of Franconia became king, to be succeeded in 919 by the energetic Henry the Fowler, duke of Saxony and founder of the Saxon dynasty of German emperors. In France the Carolingians yielded to the Capetians before the century was out. In the monasteries of Burgundy and Lorraine a new spirit of religious reform arose, which reached outward to the whole of Latin Europe and soon influenced the rich monastic traditions of Italy.

                  The ancient Anglo-Saxons from Germany - populated Italy and UK - hence we have exact matches from Italy and UK (R1b1c/R1b1c9a).
                  Isn't U5 SWEDISH? Are you more Scandanavian than Italian ? Just wondering. Or how much Italian are you ? Did you get an autosomal test? I did. gotta explain that later.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill Hurst
                    A few years ago I calculated that Oetzi was my 500th cousin, 250 times removed.

                    Bill Hurst
                    What about current Mt K matches? Are they any more recently related to you? Or who is closely related to you today? I wanna know some recent family! Who's you're most recent Cousin??

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jambalaia32
                      Isn't U5 SWEDISH?
                      Indeed, that 25-ky haplogroup looks very Swedish

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We are all - U5a1a exact matches in our family

                        http://www.geocities.com/johnraciti2/dna/image011.jpg

                        Are we ancient Nords or Brits? Or are we ancient North Germanic Danish-Germans [Anglo-Saxons] or Lombardic...? Some how we made it to Sicily. Maybe through the Normans...

                        U5a1a - 157C,192T,256T,270T,320T,399G

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by johnraciti
                          http://www.geocities.com/johnraciti2/dna/image011.jpg

                          Are we ancient Nords or Brits? Or are we ancient North Germanic Danish-Germans [Anglo-Saxons] or Lombardic...? Some how we made it to Sicily. Maybe through the Normans...

                          U5a1a - 157C,192T,256T,270T,320T,399G
                          Very nice photo and family, thanks for sharing. Here are some from your cousins up north:

                          Wedding in Kautokeino Norway:
                          http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/514-K.htm

                          A 19th century engraving of Saami people:
                          http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/507-A.htm

                          Mothers and children:
                          http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/514-J.htm

                          Family:
                          http://www.photius.com/images/fi02_05a.jpg

                          Woman with cradle from 1900:
                          http://samiland.free.fr/samiland/English/513-B.htm

                          Woman with reindeer:
                          http://www.fotoagent.dk/single_pictu...e/Im001415.jpg

                          Saami woman:
                          http://www.av-senteret.no/nettskolen...19/Image86.gif

                          This is an old photo of a group of nomads in Swedish Lappland:

                          http://www.homepagez.com/morningstar/Sami.jpg

                          Enjoy!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            K vs U

                            Haplogroup K is a branch within super-haplogroup U (the way I saw it explained somewhere). It seems like most of the German U's were or are from the southern part of the country - but not exclusively so.

                            5000 years is just yesterday, when it comes to our mtDNA evolution. It looks to me like the various branches and twigs of haplogroup U moved northward thru France, after the big melt, and then fanned out to the Britiish Isles, Scandinavia, and eastward north of the Alps.

                            Well, I'm just speculating...

                            U5b2
                            HVR1: 16279T & 16519C
                            HVR2: 73G, 150T, 228A, 263G, 309.1C & 315.1C
                            Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 6th May 2007, 02:56 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Study from 2005 suggests deep ancestry between the northern populations in Europe.

                              Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
                              Haplogroup K is a branch within super-haplogroup U (the way I saw it explained somewhere). It seems like most of the German U's were or are from the southern part of the country - but not exclusively so.

                              5000 years is just yesterday, when it comes to our mtDNA evolution. It looks to me like the various branches and twigs of haplogroup U moved northward thru France, after the big melt, and then fanned out to the Britiish Isles, Scandinavia, and eastward north of the Alps.

                              Well, I'm just speculating...

                              U5b2
                              HVR1: 16279T & 16519C
                              HVR2: 73G, 150T, 228A, 263G, 309.1C & 315.1C

                              More speculations:

                              The text under is from the abstract of this interesting study of ancient DNA done in England, where they found early genetic relations between U5 in Britain with the populations in Scandinavia and Estonia (that probably also belonged to the historical Saami areas, still today there are people in Estonia that call themselves Saami).

                              “We find evidence for shared ancestry between the earliest sites (predating Viking invasions) with modern populations across the north of Europe from Norway to Estonia, possibly reflecting common ancestors dating back to the last glacial epoch. This is in contrast with a late Saxon site in Norwich, where the genetic signature is consistent with more recent immigrations from the south, possibly as part of the Saxon invasions.”
                              http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/msj013v1.pdf


                              Britain was populated about 13000 years BP and from what I read the authors speculate if U5a might have developed in Britain and therefore is oldest there, before it moved northwards even over the ice-bridge that went from The British Isles and Scandinavia under and after the glacial maximum. The theory they proposes is supported by similar archaeological findings in Britain and Estonia from Mesolithic time.

                              U5b was present in ancient (4.2%) and early Saxon (3.2%) sites, but not in late Saxon sites and U5b is found in 1.2% of the British population. U5a1 was present in 8.3% of ancient sites and 9.7% in early Saxon sites. In modern Britain U5a1 is found in 2.7% of the population.

                              It is hard for me to tell where these genes developed, but there were several glacial refugees during the LGM than Iberia (early Magdalenian culture), there were also at least one eastern European refugee matching with the early Gravettian culture.

                              There seems to have been at least two paths these early people migrated into Scandinavia, first an early migration that match with the Hamburgian and Danish Bromme cultures and in Norway possible these are parallels to the Fosna-Hensbacka culture. Is it possible that these early people migrated northwards before 10000 years BP, there is findings both along the Norwegian coast and a 10000 year old settlement found in the arctic that supports this theory.

                              Then there is a later migration with the Ahrensburgian culture from the west via Lithuania and Estonia to the north, this fits with the Komsa culture up north and this might have come from Britain. An argument for this theory is that these people could have brought with them mtDNA V that was present in the ancient Britons (4.2%) and in the early Saxon sites (6.5%). The U5b that later mutated to U5b1b (16144, 16148, 16189, 16270) might have come with these migration.

                              There is a study done in Lund Sweden that have found a significant frequency of U5b1 without the mutation 16148, therefore the Saami genes in Lund cannot have migrated from the north to the south. The younger U5b1b (with 16148) is only found up north. Unfortunately this study that is done by Kittles et.al.(1999) have a systematic error in the Swedish sample so it cannot be concluded anything from it, hopefully there will be done a replication study of the oldest population in Lund. It was reported in 1882 that Älvdal in Dalarne County (Sweden) have a large Saami population, so there are other possibilities to check this out.

                              I guess such studies and many others must be done with help of in-depth-genealogy to be able to tell where U5a and U5b have developed. Ancient DNA is of course one-way to address the subject. I do not know if ancient U5a and U5b have been found in Iberia.

                              If you take a look at table 2 in the article you can see that mtDNA K was found in 2.1 % of the ancient sample, and in 5.9% of the late Saxon sample, it has increased steadily and today it is found in 6.6% of the British population.

                              This, of course do not explain why K is more frequent in northern than in southern Germany.
                              Last edited by Wena; 6th May 2007, 04:20 PM.

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