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Is U5 Anglo and K Saxon?

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  • #16
    These are illustrations of the melting of the ice that connected the British islands with Scandinavia.

    The ice bridge 18000 years BP
    http://www.norwaymyway.com/images/ma...6000bc_580.jpg

    The ice 10000 years BP
    http://www.norwaymyway.com/images/ma...6000bc_580.jpg

    Was the doggerland still there 10000 years BP?

    If you read page 18 the authors of the article in the previous posting mention several possibilities about how Scandinavia was populated/repopulated.

    Some people might have stayed there during the LGM, others moved south and repopulated the area later on, some might have crossed the land bridge (doggerland) between Scandinavia and Britain when the ice retreated. The article mention that this doggerland might have lasted longer than previously believed.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Wena
      More speculations:

      The text under is from the abstract of this interesting study of ancient DNA done in England, where they found early genetic relations between U5 in Britain with the populations in Scandinavia and Estonia (that probably also belonged to the historical Saami areas, still today there are people in Estonia that call themselves Saami).

      “We find evidence for shared ancestry between the earliest sites (predating Viking invasions) with modern populations across the north of Europe from Norway to Estonia, possibly reflecting common ancestors dating back to the last glacial epoch. This is in contrast with a late Saxon site in Norwich, where the genetic signature is consistent with more recent immigrations from the south, possibly as part of the Saxon invasions.”
      http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/msj013v1.pdf


      Britain was populated about 13000 years BP and from what I read the authors speculate if U5a might have developed in Britain and therefore is oldest there, before it moved northwards even over the ice-bridge that went from The British Isles and Scandinavia under and after the glacial maximum. The theory they proposes is supported by similar archaeological findings in Britain and Estonia from Mesolithic time.

      U5b was present in ancient (4.2%) and early Saxon (3.2%) sites, but not in late Saxon sites and U5b is found in 1.2% of the British population. U5a1 was present in 8.3% of ancient sites and 9.7% in early Saxon sites. In modern Britain U5a1 is found in 2.7% of the population.

      It is hard for me to tell where these genes developed, but there were several glacial refugees during the LGM than Iberia (early Magdalenian culture), there were also at least one eastern European refugee matching with the early Gravettian culture.

      There seems to have been at least two paths these early people migrated into Scandinavia, first an early migration that match with the Hamburgian and Danish Bromme cultures and in Norway possible these are parallels to the Fosna-Hensbacka culture. Is it possible that these early people migrated northwards before 10000 years BP, there is findings both along the Norwegian coast and a 10000 year old settlement found in the arctic that supports this theory.

      Then there is a later migration with the Ahrensburgian culture from the west via Lithuania and Estonia to the north, this fits with the Komsa culture up north and this might have come from Britain. An argument for this theory is that these people could have brought with them mtDNA V that was present in the ancient Britons (4.2%) and in the early Saxon sites (6.5%). The U5b that later mutated to U5b1b (16144, 16148, 16189, 16270) might have come with these migration.

      There is a study done in Lund Sweden that have found a significant frequency of U5b1 without the mutation 16148, therefore the Saami genes in Lund cannot have migrated from the north to the south. The younger U5b1b (with 16148) is only found up north. Unfortunately this study that is done by Kittles et.al.(1999) have a systematic error in the Swedish sample so it cannot be concluded anything from it, hopefully there will be done a replication study of the oldest population in Lund. It was reported in 1882 that Älvdal in Dalarne County (Sweden) have a large Saami population, so there are other possibilities to check this out.

      I guess such studies and many others must be done with help of in-depth-genealogy to be able to tell where U5a and U5b have developed. Ancient DNA is of course one-way to address the subject. I do not know if ancient U5a and U5b have been found in Iberia.

      If you take a look at table 2 in the article you can see that mtDNA K was found in 2.1 % of the ancient sample, and in 5.9% of the late Saxon sample, it has increased steadily and today it is found in 6.6% of the British population.

      This, of course do not explain why K is more frequent in northern than in southern Germany.

      Very interesting speculations. I agree with a lot of what you say here in ways. I would also like to find out in which glacial refuge U5 (more specifically U5a) originated. Since CHeddar Man from Mesolithic Britain was U5a maybe it developed in Iberia and migrated straight up to Britain after the ice age or maybe it did come from somewhere else.

      Where did you read that U5a may have originated in Britain?

      Comment


      • #18
        Have you seen Achilli's paper dealing with the similarities between Saami and Berber mtDNA?

        "The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ∼9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."

        http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../42165.web.pdf

        John

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Johnserrat
          Have you seen Achilli's paper dealing with the similarities between Saami and Berber mtDNA?

          "The sequencing of entire human mitochondrial DNAs belonging to haplogroup U reveals that this clade arose shortly after the “out of Africa” exit and rapidly radiated into numerous regionally distinct subclades. Intriguingly, the Saami of Scandinavia and the Berbers of North Africa were found to share an extremely young branch, aged merely ∼9,000 years. This unexpected finding not only confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum but also reveals a direct maternal link between those European hunter-gatherer populations and the Berbers."

          http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../42165.web.pdf

          John

          Yes I have seen that before it was interesting. I have a strong feeling that the physical similarities between the ancient Cro-Magnons of Europe and the Afalou people of Northwest Africa may have been due to their shared haplogroup U ancestry. In Europe there was a lot of U5 and in North Africa some U5 and a lot of U6.

          Comment


          • #20
            2 Wena (secretly)

            it's hard to convince this Western folk in anything which contradicts that there was a glorious path of the civilization from West to East and it was only in this direction.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Bill Hurst
              A few years ago I calculated that Oetzi was my 500th cousin, 250 times removed.

              Bill Hurst
              That's because Oetzi is dead. He was from 5,000 years ago-he's dead to all of us prettylittle mt-K's . And that's a fact. But you're still a GodDam*ned Mt-K aren't you? I still think you're mighty vague Bill Hurst - Vague as sh*t. By the way what's you Pappy's Dna makeup? ost men are proud of their Pappy's Dna makeup-you're the only guy that's so proud of his Mommy. What's your Pappy ? Not like I care. My K match's Poppy is type Y-L or I.The Scandanavian guy. But the authentic Mt-K MAN is Y-Haplogrp. R1b1. I emailed a Mt-K in England,and both his parents are of corresponding Haplogrps.,so they are a totally EvenSteventeam. I know my Autosomal,and Maternal-I'll get pappy's if I have a son.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by vraatyah
                Indeed, that 25-ky haplogroup looks very Swedish
                I'm serious -Isn't U5 the Haplogroup of Sweden? And U6 is Berber the originator of the Caucasian Race in North Africa. I don't mean does U5 LOOK Swedish I mean ARE they Authentically Swedish?

                Going by looks only would give no validation to having genetic Dna. Which states as a fact that you match a certain country or not.
                Last edited by Jambalaia32; 17th May 2007, 04:11 PM. Reason: To add quote.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Jambalaia32
                  I'm serious -Isn't U5 the Haplogroup of Sweden? And U6 is Berber the originator of the Caucasian Race in North Africa. I don't mean does U5 LOOK Swedish I mean ARE they Authentically Swedish?

                  Going by looks only would give no validation to having genetic Dna. Which states as a fact that you match a certain country or not.

                  No U5 is not the only haplogroup of Sweden and it most likely did not originate there. There weren't even people in Sweden when U5 originated which was around 45,000 years ago. If anything U5 people are authentically European. U6 is high among the Berbers especially in Algeria from what I have read.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jambalaia32
                    I'm serious -Isn't U5 the Haplogroup of Sweden?
                    Please, look at the samples published within last 10 years. Russians (N=1026) have about 10% of U5 with high diversity. Germans (N = 1660) have 9% with a diversity comparable to that of Russians. In Norway (N=650, without Saami) the frequency is about 12% and diversity is lower than in Germans. In Finland (N>600, without Saami) the frequency reaches 20% and the diversity is more than twice lower than that of Germans-Russians, and this remains correct even we subtract all U5b1b1 variants from the sample. There is a very limited number of published Swedish sequences. According to K.Tambets' report (which I listened to, I don't have a printed copy) the frequency of U5 in Swedes seems to be comparable to the Norse one, this author collected more than 500 samples, those results were also partially published in their 2004 y Saami paper. So, the frequency value we are interested in can be approximated by the Norse and Finnish bounds, and probably the same is correct for the diversity. More generally, the Nei diversity (which is just the probability for 2 random individuals to have distinct haplotypes) constantly decreases in South - North direction because people living in the severe Northern climate usually form groups of a smaller size.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Origins of K

                      Looking at a chart in the Saami & Berber paper (2005), it shows haplogroup K breaking off from haplogroup U8. That must've been back around 30,000 years ago or even more. Recalling maps, such as Genographic, it seems like that may have happened in central Europe. Then, at the height of the Ice Age, haplogroup K retreated down to Italy. After the big melt, some moved up the Danube & tributaries, whiile others of the K group moved up thru France & on to England, etc. Still others stayed in Italy.

                      Well, that's my current scenario.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
                        Looking at a chart in the Saami & Berber paper (2005), it shows haplogroup K breaking off from haplogroup U8. That must've been back around 30,000 years ago or even more. Recalling maps, such as Genographic, it seems like that may have happened in central Europe. Then, at the height of the Ice Age, haplogroup K retreated down to Italy. After the big melt, some moved up the Danube & tributaries, whiile others of the K group moved up thru France & on to England, etc. Still others stayed in Italy.

                        Well, that's my current scenario.

                        If K broke off from U8 when did U8 and U5 break apart?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Sammi & Berber chart

                          I wasn't really expecting a direct reply. But according to the chart in the paper showing the various branches of haplogroup "U", the various U branches first split into two groups: U2, U3, U4, U7, U8 & U9; the other group includes U1, U5 & U6. The various branches further broke down over time into sub-groups, one of which was haplogroup K.

                          But maybe that has been revised by this time; The paper was published in 2005.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            PDHOTLEN and J-Man:

                            I think that, in terms of tree (though not about the exact timing), the U situation is clear, as PDHOTLEN was saying. U is characterized (relative to R) by three mutations. Then at the root of U there are 4 branches. One is the first group you said, which shares one (but only one) coding region mutation. The other three branches are U1, U5 and U6 (these are separate branches at the root). Hence the split between these 4 must have happened very early, right near the origin of U, which is estimated by Achilli at around 60,000 years ago. The most recent common ancestor for all U5 is estimated at around 40,000 years ago.

                            Unfortunately, the Achilli paper doesn't provide an estimate for the other subhaplogroups. I counted around 9 mutations from the root of U to K,
                            so that implies quite some time.

                            I don' t know of any particular recent paper about U after the Achilli paper. There was a paper (Olivieri 2007) about U6 which drew a parallel between U5 and U6, saying that both seem to have been the first, early haplogroups to migrate west, U5 into Europe and U6 into N Africa. This second paper estimates the age of U6 as 45,000 years.

                            cacio

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                            • #29
                              U5a1a - People

                              I have found that U5a1a members of my project DNA Project: Nordic-Celtic - U5a1a - people are found among these peoples/cultures below:-

                              Irish, Scottish Gaelic
                              English Anglo-Saxon
                              English Anglo-Saxon
                              English Anglo-Saxon
                              Scottish Gaelic
                              English Anglo-Saxon
                              Scottish Anglo Norman
                              Welsh ancient Brythonic Celts of Wales
                              English, German Norman French
                              Scottish Norman
                              English Anglo-Saxon
                              Scottish Gaelic
                              English Anglo-Saxon Old Danish
                              German
                              French
                              English, Irish Anglo-Saxon
                              English Old English
                              French
                              English, French, German Norman
                              English, Welsh Old German
                              Scottish
                              Dutch-Alt, Dutch, English, French, German Anglo-Saxon
                              Scottish Norman

                              I believe U5a1a members came into Sicily via Normans. It makes sense - when this membership is found among Northern Europeans.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                origin of the Angles and Saxons

                                An question asks my attention. From where did the Angles and
                                Saxons come originally? Maybe from Sweden? On the southwest
                                coast of Sweden there exist Angerland.
                                Perhaps the Angles and Saxons came like the Goths from Sweden
                                too before their departure from Jutland to Britain?

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