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Polish MTDNA? Need help interpreting results.

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  • Polish MTDNA? Need help interpreting results.

    My direct maternal line hits a brick wall with a great-great-great grandmother born about 1834 in Tennessee, according to the 1860 Census. Her name was Louisa; she and her husband, William Franklin Johnson, had four children and she died after giving birth to the last in 1861. That's all I know about her. So, I took the mtFull Sequence test.

    Haplogroup - K1a1b1a.

    ---

    Ancestral Origins.

    HVR1, HVR2, Coding Regions - 0.

    HVR1 and HVR2 Matches:

    [By number > 20]

    Poland 90/4085 2.20%
    Ashkenazi (18), Galicia (1), Prussia (2)

    Russian Federation 63/2711 2.30%
    Ashkenazi (11)

    Ukraine 59/1753 3.40%
    Ashkanazi (Chausey) (1), Ashkenazi (22)

    Germany 52/11499 0.50%
    Ashkenazi (9)

    Lithuania 43/980 4.40%
    Ashkenazi (14)

    Hungary 30/1021 2.90%
    Ashkenazi (6)

    Romania 29/562 5.20%
    Ashkenazi (9)

    Belarus 28/613 4.60%
    Ashkenazi (5)

    Austria 20/973 2.10%
    Ashkenazi (3), Bohemia (1).

    ---

    Haplogroup Origins.

    HVR1, HVR2, Coding Region Matches. Genetic Distance -1.

    [By number > 10]

    Poland 34
    Ashkenazi 4

    Russian Federation 24
    Ashkenazi 2

    Ukraine 20
    Ashkanazi (Chausey) 1
    Ashkenazi 5

    Lithuania 18
    Ashkenazi 8

    Germany 17
    Ashkenazi 6

    Hungary 13
    Ashkenazi 1

    Belarus 12
    Ashkenazi 2

    Romania 10
    Ashkenazi 8.
    Last edited by raschau; 20th July 2018, 08:37 PM.

  • #2
    I saw your question first in Anthrogenica at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-about-k1a1b1a

    An important thing to know is that only some Ashkenazim have the designation "Ashkenazi" set in the mtDNA section's Comments column. Many left it blank, whether intentionally or not. And this haplogroup is extremely rare in non-Jewish families in Eastern Europe, and wherever it occurs in that region it surely came from an Ashkenazic ancestress.

    If I understand you correctly, you did test your complete mtDNA sequence but you have no matches at all in your Full Coding Region screen? The Ashkenazic matches start to appear only in your HVR2 screen? I think this rules out your having an Ashkenazic ancestor. I don't think your most recent common ancestor with them was ethnically Polish either. Some researchers say southwestern Europe was the place of origin. Italy has been their top guess for a while but it has been disputed by others.
    Last edited by khazaria; 21st July 2018, 05:23 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by khazaria View Post
      If I understand you correctly, you did test your complete mtDNA sequence but you have no matches at all in your Full Coding Region screen? The Ashkenazic matches start to appear only in your HVR2 screen? I think this rules out your having an Ashkenazic ancestor.
      I have zero 'HVR1, HVR2, and Coding Region Matches' in the 'Ancestral Origins' section, 48 Genetic Distance=1 matches for 'HVR1, HVR2, and Coding Regions' in the 'Haplogroup Origins' section, and about 14 pages of Genetic Distance=1 matches for 'HVR1, HVR2, Coding Regions' in the 'Matches' section.



      I don't think your most recent common ancestor with them was ethnically Polish either. Some researchers say southwestern Europe was the place of origin. Italy has been their top guess for a while but it has been disputed by others.
      Well, darn. I was hoping this would be genetically useful somehow. What does it mean to have no CR matches? If I don't have an Ashkenazi ancestor, does this mean we share a common European ancestor that pre-dates their founding as a people in Europe? If I understand correctly, K1a1b1a is hardly found in non-Ashkenazim - is there some significance to being one of these or is it just mildly interesting genetic trivia?
      Last edited by raschau; 21st July 2018, 08:58 AM.

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      • #4
        Wait a minute: do I understand correctly that you have a lot of matches (HVR1, HVR2, and coding region) at Genetic Distance = 1 ?
        It may be that your family has one recent random mutation that makes you different from everybody else.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Emona View Post
          Wait a minute: do I understand correctly that you have a lot of matches (HVR1, HVR2, and coding region) at Genetic Distance = 1 ?
          It may be that your family has one recent random mutation that makes you different from everybody else.
          That's true, now that raschau has clarified that in fact there are some closely-matching Ashkenazim. This makes an Ashkenazic ancestor very likely.

          Having an Ashkenazic ancestor is consistent with some of your autosomal results that you posted to https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-23andMe-FTDNA -- AncestryDNA's 3% European Jewish estimate and Family Tree DNA's 5% Jewish Diaspora estimate although that doesn't explain the 0% Ashkenazi score you got in 23andMe unless it got included in another category like "Broadly Southern European" where you score 1.9%.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Emona View Post
            Wait a minute: do I understand correctly that you have a lot of matches (HVR1, HVR2, and coding region) at Genetic Distance = 1 ?
            It may be that your family has one recent random mutation that makes you different from everybody else.
            1131 total HVR1/HVR2/CR matches, 345 of them are GD=1. Based on the surnames, I'd guess at least 300 of these matches are Ashkenazim. See here: https://ibb.co/i70wuJ

            Originally posted by khazaria View Post
            Having an Ashkenazic ancestor is consistent with some of your autosomal results that you posted to https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-23andMe-FTDNA -- AncestryDNA's 3% European Jewish estimate and Family Tree DNA's 5% Jewish Diaspora estimate although that doesn't explain the 0% Ashkenazi score you got in 23andMe unless it got included in another category like "Broadly Southern European" where you score 1.9%.
            The FTDNA autosomal results are somewhat baffling:

            Scandinavia 44%
            Iberia 25%
            West and Central Europe 11%
            British Isles 10%
            East Europe 5%
            Jewish Diaspora 5%


            I have one great-grandmother (not my MTDNA connection) who was Dalmatian; her family were a mix of Austrians, Croatians, and Italians. This has had an interesting effect on autosomal test results...
            Last edited by raschau; 21st July 2018, 07:14 PM.

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            • #7
              Here's a screenshot of my GD=1 matches: https://ibb.co/i70wuJ

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              • #8
                Indeed, most of your closest mtDNA matches are Ashkenazim, with several others having Sephardic matrilineages from Macedonia and France.

                In Family Finder, AncestryDNA, and 23andMe, did you find you have an abundance of autosomal cousin matches to people who appear to be fully Ashkenazic?
                Last edited by khazaria; 21st July 2018, 07:44 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by khazaria View Post
                  In Family Finder, AncestryDNA, and 23andMe, did you find you have an abundance of autosomal cousin matches to people who appear to be fully Ashkenazic?
                  Actually, no. There are no Ashkenazi surnames in my list of cousins in the 2nd-5th range.

                  The top surnames are quite generically British: Smith (38), Jones (27), Johnson (22), Davis (21), Thompson (18), Brown (17), Wilson (16), Miller (15), Taylor (15), Hall (14), Hill (14), Williams (14), Martin (13), Adams (11), Boggs (10), Carter (10), Harris (10), Morgan (10), Porter (10), Rice (10).

                  None of my AncestryDNA 2nd-4th cousin matches appear to be Ashkenazi.

                  Likewise none of my 1st-5th cousin matches in Family Finder appear to have Ashkenazi surnames.

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                  • #10
                    This is really intriguing. Since you evidently have no Ashkenazic matches in the autosomal databases, I'm reverting back to my original opinion that your most recent common ancestor with these Jews likely lived a long time ago and probably was not Jewish herself.

                    Jewish DNA wasn't present among the early British settlers of North America and the early-19th-century United States, and this is a relevant consideration if it is most likely that Louisa was British.

                    Maybe you belong to a newly-discovered sub-branch that could eventually be called K1a1b1a1. Mutations can be studied by experts on mtDNA K, including by project administrators in Family Tree DNA and by scientists using the GenBank database if you want to contribute your mtDNA pattern there.

                    My mother's father was an Ashkenazic K1a1b1a.

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                    • #11
                      There is a project for K1a1b1a haplogroup at geni.com

                      https://www.geni.com/projects/K1a1b1...A/people/35709

                      (A free account is needed to see the details)

                      Somehow, I have noticed a name that was not so Jewish-sounding to me (or is it?), and has K1a1b1a (if you believe the family tree is correct all the way from the person who tested, back to this woman):
                      https://www.geni.com/people/Mary-Ska...00041106843668

                      locations mentioned: West Virginia, Virginia ... - not that far from Tennessee.
                      Just in case - you never know.

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