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J1c2 Mtdna meaning?

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  • J1c2 Mtdna meaning?

    Well, I have found little or no information on this group for the Mtdna.

    I basically know more about J ingeneral or J1, than this subclade.

    So I am just curious if anyone knows the origins of this subclade or their journey?

    Thankyou

  • #2
    I am J1c3i and I'm disappointed in how little information is out there about specific mtdna J subclades. I started a spreadsheet for mtdna J's to post the location of their eldest mitochondrial ancestress but I'd love to see FTDNA and 23andme use their databases to break down these subclade percentages better. I know all J1c subclades are pretty European specific. When I first started this 4+ years ago, I was told that my mtdna was a Nealithic farmer marker but the last couple papers I read suggests J1c participated in Europe's preneolithic expansion. Here are my links that I've collected for mtdna J:

    Mtdna analysis tool:
    http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap-new/

    Maternal J spreadsheet, add the location of your mitochondrial ancestress’s homeland. Just type, it will automatically save:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Mtdna Inheritance chart:
    http://www.kerchner.com/mtdnachart.htm

    Here's the most recent paper about J (that I know of):
    On the Structure and Age of Haplogroup JT ˗ A Phylogenetic Tour
    http://www.jogg.info/72/files/Logan.pdf

    And here's a great source for looking at J's subclades and some maps of where they occur:
    http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/j...02042.mmc1.pdf

    Age estimates of Mtdna subclades - J’s start pg. 107:
    http://download.cell.com/AJHG/mmcs/j...01462.mmc1.pdf

    Here's is a nice source to see where the different maternal haplogroups of Europe occur by percentage:
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...requency.shtml

    Here’s a better mtdna J Famous relative: King Richard III J1c2c:
    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...mortal_remains

    MtDNA analysis of global populations support that major population expansions began before Neolithic Time
    http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/1210...srep00745.html

    Mtdna J within Ashkenazim:
    “Haplogroup J comprises 7% of the Ashkenazi control-region database. Around 72% of these can be assigned to J1c, now thought to have arisen within Late Glacial Europe30, and 19% belong to J1b1a1, also restricted to Europe. Thus >90% of the Ashkenazi J lineages have a European origin, with ~7% (J1b and J2b) less clearly associated. Many have a probable west/central European source, despite (like H) being most frequent in eastern Ashkenazim. The four Ashkenazi J mitogenomes, in J1c5, J1c7a1a and J1c7d, once again show a striking pattern of Mediterranean, west and central European lineages enclosing Ashkenazi/east European ones (Fig. 9).”
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/13...comms3543.html

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks very much. Yes , I agree. There is so little information put togeather.

      If there were even just a book or leaflet even where one could have the facts, it would be easier but to get and pay for subclade results with no explanation is rather ridiculous.

      Do you reckon the DNA experts even know?

      One wonders why they cant be bothered to put the information togeather .
      Last edited by EuroGirl; 14th October 2013, 04:55 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Do you reckon the DNA experts even know?
        Good question. My sense is that mtdna J does not receive as much attention as some other branches because it is not perceived as being that informative for ancient populations or current genetic mixes. It's old and widespread, has a respectable presence without being plentiful or rare, and for the most part, doesn't point to any particular culture or population. Eupedia says that mtdna J is one of the oldest mitochondrial haplogroups in both Europe and the Middle East and may be connected to the spread of Indo Europeans:
        http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...urope.shtml#JT

        I personally have always been interested in this passage from Jim Logan's paper on JT:

        Thirdly, within Haplogroup J1 the size of clade J1c is three times as large as J1b and J1d combined. The obvious question is why was J1c so advantaged. This graphic was also drawn to bring out the star-like characteristic of this clade. A likely interpretation of this is that there has been very rapid growth in this population and that there has not been enough time for the drift to result in fixation to fewer well defined clades.
        He suggests that J1c may have been at the forefront of the Neolithic farmer migration into Europe but researchers now postulate that J1c was already in Europe by then. Given J1c's dominance over other J subclades and the great many subclades, it seems to suggest that J1c was positioned to uniquely benefit from the population explosion after the ice age, and perhaps the Neolithic farming revolution. Why?

        Personally, I find the branch fascinating but then I'm biased. I think in general, J suffers from apathy and perhaps a bad reputation due to it's long association with the Neolithic expansion.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by EuroGirl View Post
          Thanks very much. Yes , I agree. There is so little information put togeather.

          If there were even just a book or leaflet even where one could have the facts, it would be easier but to get and pay for subclade results with no explanation is rather ridiculous.

          Do you reckon the DNA experts even know?

          One wonders why they cant be bothered to put the information togeather .
          It is mostly left up to the volunteer project administrators to compile information on specific subclades. Jim Logan has done a lot of work on haplogroup J, but it will take much more time and work to compile summaries of each tip of the J tree.

          I spend a couple hours each night compiling statistics on U5 and I update the project results page periodically. But there are probably not many people crazy enough to spend that much time on this.

          FTDNA could pay someone to do this analysis, but I assume they would have to raise the prices on the test significantly to cover the cost. I think that would be a good idea, as it would make the test results more interesting. But it might also result in fewer people testing, and in many cases, we still need many more test results to do a meaningful analysis of the lowest level subclades.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by EuroGirl View Post
            Well, I have found little or no information on this group for the Mtdna.

            I basically know more about J ingeneral or J1, than this subclade.

            So I am just curious if anyone knows the origins of this subclade or their journey?

            Thankyou
            Thee short answer is No. The databases at commercial testing companies are highly biased, i.e. not representative of the European population. The same is true for the Pala study and the Richards study which covered Mtdna J. Without a representative sample any speculation about origins would be questionable. To be specific, my hunch is that some subclades of J1c began near the Black Sea, Turkey, the Ukraine or the Balkans. However we do not have good estimates of J1c subclade rates in these areas because there has been little full sequence testing in the areas.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by EuroGirl View Post
              Well, I have found little or no information on this group for the Mtdna.

              I basically know more about J ingeneral or J1, than this subclade.

              So I am just curious if anyone knows the origins of this subclade or their journey?

              Thankyou
              Thee short answer is No. The databases at commercial testing companies are highly biased, i.e. not representative of the European population. The same is true for the Pala study and the Richards study which covered Mtdna J. Without a representative sample any speculation about origins would be questionable. To be specific, my hunch is that some subclades of J1c began near the Black Sea, Turkey, the Ukraine or the Balkans. However we do not have good estimates of J1c subclade rates in these areas because there has been little full sequence testing in the areas compared to western Europe.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yep, I wonder if I should suggest they write a printable leaflet for the subclades. It would be a help. Otherwise its kind of pointless having the results.

                But as you said maybe little is known about the J1c2 subclade. I was under the impression J is middle eastern and J1c2 more European.

                I'm clueless actually inregards to this.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by EuroGirl View Post
                  Yep, I wonder if I should suggest they write a printable leaflet for the subclades. It would be a help. Otherwise its kind of pointless having the results.




                  But as you said maybe little is known about the J1c2 subclade. I was under the impression J is middle eastern and J1c2 more European.

                  I'm clueless actually inregards to this.
                  All we know is that J1c and it's subclades are European

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mitochondrial Ancestress Spreadsheet

                    Originally posted by Littlest bit View Post
                    expansion. Here are my links that I've collected for mtdna J:

                    ....

                    Maternal J spreadsheet, add the location of your mitochondrial ancestress’s homeland. Just type, it will automatically save:
                    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0
                    Hi- I was interested to find this link but sadly, it appears to have disappeared or have broken.

                    Does anyone know if the spreadsheet is still active?


                    Thanks!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Does anyone know if the spreadsheet is still active?
                      Sorry, that thing is long gone. I started it many years ago for 23andme customers since 23andme offered so little haplogroup info but it got corrupted over the years and I've deleted what was left of it.

                      FTDNA's mtdna J group is a good place to start for info and Jim Logan has done some extra analysis you can find in some downloadable PDF's. I think FTDNA should update customer interface and provide better statistics but I'm not holding my breath. FTDNA has needed an update for a long time and mtdna tends to take a backseat to Y testing and Family Finder.

                      Comment

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