A member wants his son's ....

[Jim Barrett]

Say What?

A father and son should have the same 67 marker hapotype.

Not a true statement! Even Bennett Greenspan and his father weren't exact matches at 25 markers.

When do you think mutations occur if they can't occur between a father and a son?

[mahgninnuc]

2 markers off at 37

My half brother and I differ by 2 markers at 37 markers. One of us, most likely me, obviously does not match our father exactly. Unfortunately, our father is not alive to test.

[1798]

Not a true statement! Even Bennett Greenspan and his father weren't exact matches at 25 markers.

When do you think mutations occur if they can't occur between a father and a son?

If mutations happened on a regular basis between fathers and sons how would one be able to create a modal haplotype for R1b or any other group?

[Jim Barrett]

My half brother and I differ by 2 markers at 37 markers. One of us, most likely me, obviously does not match our father exactly. Unfortunately, our father is not alive to test.

The older a man is when the child is conceived, the greater the chance of a mutation.

[Jim Barrett]

If mutations happened on a regular basis between fathers and sons how would one be able to create a modal haplotype for R1b or any other group?

Please define "regular basis". Your words. Not mine!

When do you think mutations occur?

There are usually many generations between the occurrence of a mutation, but it will occur between a father and his son.

[1798]

Please define "regular basis". Your words. Not mine!

When do you think mutations occur?

There are usually many generations between the occurrence of a mutation, but it will occur between a father and his son.

I don't know when mutations occur or why.I do know that I have only a GD of 12 from the WAMH at 67 markers and that is supposed to me the haplotype of the ancestor known as L11. If L11 was born 8,000 ybp then I have only 12 ystr mutations in that time. I have a lot more YSNPs in the same time frame.

[rivergirl]

The WAMH haplotype represents a 12 marker Haplotype that was the most common in Europe, the R1b1a2 haplogroup, as opposed to the 6 marker Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

It does not refer to the more refined extended markers of 37, 67, 111 etc...which came in later years.
My relative is WAMH at 12 markers and is R1b L21, L144.

You cannot compare your matches of 12 markers to those at 37, 67 and 111.
Anyone with a WAMH haplotype needs to test to at least 67 markers to refine their matches.

[1798]

The WAMH haplotype represents a 12 marker Haplotype that was the most common in Europe, the R1b1a2 haplogroup, as opposed to the 6 marker Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

It does not refer to the more refined extended markers of 37, 67, 111 etc...which came in later years.
My relative is WAMH at 12 markers and is R1b L21, L144.

You cannot compare your matches of 12 markers to those at 37, 67 and 111.
Anyone with a WAMH haplotype needs to test to at least 67 markers to refine their matches.

There is a 67 R1b marker modal at ysearch.org which is an extended version of the 12 marker WAMH. I think that anyone close to that modal does not have to test for the M269 SNP.

[1798]

Anyone with a WAMH haplotype needs to test to at least 67 markers to refine their matches.

Anyone with a WAMH needs to SNP test to see which branch of R1b they belong in. Paying for more YSTR markers won't help them.If I compared my 67 marker haplotype to the other Z156 men in my group I would not have tested for Z156 as I have a GD of 30 from some of them.

[rivergirl]

I have 77 exact 12 marker matches, 70 of them do not belong in the same subclade. I would have to go back to L11 to the common ancestor. That shows that YSTRs are not reliable.
A father and son should have the same 67 marker hapotype.

Your original comment that I was answering was referring to 12 marker tests, not 67.

Sometimes going 67 markers gives a very good indication of which R1b subgroup they will be in, they can then order just 1 SNP to confirm that subclade if that is what they want to do. They do not have to do it.

If their close relative have matching haplotypes, there is no need for all to SNP test. It is a waste of money.

[1798]

Your original comment that I was answering was referring to 12 marker tests, not 67.

Sometimes going 67 markers gives a very good indication of which R1b subgroup they will be in, they can then order just 1 SNP to confirm that subclade if that is what they want to do. They do not have to do it.

If their close relative have matching haplotypes, there is no need for all to SNP test. It is a waste of money.

A person should not test his or her relatives as they have the same dna.

[rivergirl]

They must match in SNP not ystr values.

So the father and son who this post was about, must match on SNPs not y STRs, according to your original post, but know you say people should not test relatives as they will be the same DNA.

It's their choice if they wish to test each generation.

[Jim Barrett]

A person should not test his or her relatives as they have the same dna.

What DNA are you talking about?

[1798]

What DNA are you talking about?

Does fathers and sons not have the same dna? Does brothers and sisters not have the same dna? Does cousins not have the same dna? There are a lot of strangers out there who have the same dna lines that I have,Y and MT and autosomal as well.

[prairielad]

Does fathers and sons not have the same dna? Does brothers and sisters not have the same dna? Does cousins not have the same dna? There are a lot of strangers out there who have the same dna lines that I have,Y and MT and autosomal as well.

in regards to yDNA STR's, no close family members may not have the same values. This all depends when a mutation/copy error occurred.

For instance between my Father, his brother, and their 1st cousin, each has different values.

My Father to 1st Cousin - 1 [email protected], 4 [email protected], 4 [email protected]
My Father to his brother - 1 GD @ 37 markers
My Uncle to 1st Cousin - 1 [email protected], 3 [email protected]

My Father's 1st Cousin's results are the closest to all other surname matches(he has about 3 times as many surname matches), showing that in my direct line within the last 2 generations (My Grandfather to children and My Great Grandfather to my Grandfather) there was an instance of multiple STR value changes, one possibly a 2 Step.

Depending on how ones yDNA matches others, it maybe beneficial to test other family members to rule out any recent changes which will place you at a greater GD.

Granted terminal SNP value should be identical.....