Scottish or not?

[cturtle]

According to our DNA, from the Tittle surname project, the highest percentage of matches (12 for 12 w/ a genetic distance of one) is from Belarus. What kind of time frame are we talking about? The reason I ask is that the majority of the matches with none Tittle surnames appear to be of Scottish origins. As I am the administrator to the Tittle surname project I would like to make a more definitive answer to our members then "Belarus a long time ago". I had the Lancaster Co. Pa. Historical Society, do some research on John Tittle, c. 1700. My oldest known ancestor. The Historical Society said they believed our family to be Ulster-Scot!
Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Chris Tittle

[rainbow]

Hi Chris, I also have some Ulster-Scot ancestry from I beleive Lancaster and Bucks counties in PA, on my mothers side. No Tittles in the tree. I wanted to say that many years ago, late 1970s or early 1980s, my mom told me that she had a talk with a woman who ran a Scottish products shop about the origins of the Scots (people of Scotland) and she said the lady said that they originally came from the steppes of russia. And my mom mentioned kurgans to me. I think that was what they were called.

The Belarus link could be from several thousands of years ago. According to the Genographic Project maps Europeans developed in Central Asia and split off and went west to Europe while the rest developed into Asians and Native Americans and went east many thousands of years ago.
And I think the ydna experts might post and suggest that you upgrade to at least 37, maybe up to 67.

Elizabeth

[john franks]

Hi,

I can't help with your basic question but I can say something about the origins of the Scots. The Scots were an Irish tribe who dominated the North of Ireland in the early centuries AD. Around the fourth century they started to move over to the west of Scotland and established a kingdom there. Over hundreds of years they became the dominant power and gave their name to the country - about 1000 AD I think.

However a number of other peoples were in Scotland before the Scots arrived. Principally these were descendants of the pre-Roman British tribes in the south-west of the country, Norse people in the Northern Isles, the far north and down the west coast, Anglo-Saxon in the south-east and Picts in the north-east. Even before these peoples it is thought that some very early post-ice-age migrants arrived on the west coast from the Iberian peninsular. And then much later the Norman-French must have had an influence on the Scottish gene pool - but they were really Norsemen!

I guess all this tells us is that there must be a stupendous mix of DNA types in Scotland.

Hope this helps a bit.

John

[bob armstrong]

Hello Chris,
I've studied Armstrongs on the Borders for nearly 30 years, & one of the most common surnames in the region was Little. I only mention this as there have been numerous cases of a surname being written incorrectly, & then taken as gospel. Little/Tittle?
As you are probably aware, Malcolm Canmore tried to coax his noblemen to adopt surnames (as per the Norman habit) during his reign. Many of more humble stock didn't do so until well into the 1400's. Often people would merely adopt the surname of the local strongest 'clan' or landowner - a nightmare for genealogists!
Anyway, if you see any matches with Border surnames:Elliot, Cozier, Bell, Nixon, Beatty, Graham, Kerr etc it may give you a clue.
I apologize if I'm supplying you with info you already have.
Cheers
Bob

[rainbow]

I googled kurgan and found that the theory came from Marija Gimbutas in 1959. The kurgans were a bronze age people that over-ran much of Europe. They introduced the wheel (wheeled carts), horses, and stone burial mounds (called kurgans and cairns). Also saw these terms on pages about the Kurgans: Steppes, Pontic-Caspian, and Scythian. I will go on on a limb and stretch it further and add my two cents by saying that I think the surnames of Corrigan, Kerrigan, Corr, and Kerr are based on the words kurgan or cairn, indicating the ancient families that were either living near or made the graves/burial mounds or are descended from the people who were kurgans.

[rivergirl]

I googled kurgan and found that the theory came from Marija Gimbutas in 1959. The kurgans were a bronze age people that over-ran much of Europe. They introduced the wheel (wheeled carts), horses, and stone burial mounds (called kurgans and cairns). Also saw these terms on pages about the Kurgans: Steppes, Pontic-Caspian, and Scythian. I will go on on a limb and stretch it further and add my two cents by saying that I think the surnames of Corrigan, Kerrigan, Corr, and Kerr are based on the words kurgan or cairn, indicating the ancient families that were either living near or made the graves/burial mounds or are descended from the people who were kurgans.

The Corrigan (O'Corrigan, Carrigan, Corocan, Courigan, Currigan) surname is of Irish descent. Translated Corrigan means "Spear". The name is believed to have originated from Coirdhecan of the Cineal Eoghain.

[rivergirl]

Rainbow, I cant seem to get these pasted into this reply. Third try.

See this link for Irish surname Corrigan, Kerrigan, Corr ec..
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/

[rainbow]

I still think it stems from the Kurgans. The Kerr name in Scotland is Scottish. And about spears, maybe that represents the conquering or overrunning by the ancient Kurgans. The Kurgans were sort of like the later rampaging Vikings, only worse. People from Scotland and Ireland went back and forth, so I don't doubt that there would be some overlapping in their genes and languages. I also think the words cur or curr (as in "that man is such a cur!") and maybe incorrigible and courage come from the behavior of the kurgans.
thanks for the link and discussion.

I do think that Tittle's Belarus ydna matches could be from ancient pre-Scotland peoples, but still Scottish.



p.s. I am descended from a Kerr.

[cturtle]

RE: Scottish or not

I would like to thank every one for enlightening me, with their knowledgeable discourse. I'll still need to do more research, before making a pronouncement on our recent origins. I mean prior to being Americans.
In the book "The Barret Family (A Colonial Romance)" It's a historical account of life in the Caribbean Islands. It covers the Family of Edward Tittle " a Scottish immigrant" to Kingston, Jamaica in the 1600's. He was listed Cordwainer, or shoe maker and Great Grandfather to the Poet, Robert Browning Jr. In the book; BURKES, The Meaning of English Surnames. It list Tittle as a dweller of Tietly Woods in Nottingham shire, England.
Just When I think I've got a handle on it along comes a book and throws a wrench in the gears.
Thanks every one!
Sincerely Chris Tittle

P.S. Bob Armstrong; Funny you should mention Crozier's. They're in my family tree. Just not in my Y-DNA line.

[bob armstrong]

Hello Rainbow,
All the Border Peel Towers had spiral staircases built so that right-handed swordsmen could ascend them & have an advantage fighting off attackers. The only Borders family to have towers built to suit left-handers were the Kerrs.
Some Scots pronounced Kerr as Karr, & it is said the term 'cack-handed' - signifying left-handed, came from that source.
The few Towers I've visited have all been right-handed re stairs.
Cheers
Bob

[gtc]

Some Scots pronounced Kerr as Karr

FWIW, I've also heard Kerr pronounced as 'Care'.

[bob armstrong]

I've heard it pronounced in several ways in Scotland, & yes, 'Kare' is one of them. The saying "he's cack-handed" sometimes sounds like 'kah-handed'. Some Scots seem to shorten the sound dramatically so it's difficult to accurately decribe the sound.
Cheers
Bob

[rainbow]

Hi Bob Armstrong,
Thank you for that fascinating information. My father is left-handed, but the Kerr is on my mother's side. I didn't know it was a Border name. Kerr is on one of my Ulster-Scot lines. I started off in school using my left-hand, but that was changed because teachers insisted on everyone being right-handed because we have "a right-handed world". There were a few hold-outs. Then one year the school got rid of the all squarish desks, and the chairs, and brought in right-handed desks-chairs that had the desk on the right with the chair attached (welded?) to it. It was awful. I have been trained to write right-handed.

[rainbow]

One of my mother's brothers was left-handed.

[rainbow]

FWIW, I've also heard Kerr pronounced as 'Care'.

I've heard it pronounced "Care" too. That's my fave way of saying it.
I asked my mom and she said the Kerr in our family tree was centuries ago and her maiden name was Nannie Kerr.