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DYS462 is essentual to classifying I1A ULTRA-NORSE

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  • DYS462 is essentual to classifying I1A ULTRA-NORSE

    This might be helpful to some of you who are dealing with Ultra-Norse I1A haplotypes.

    I notice that many admins myself included are using Ken Nordsvedt's work on the I1A Haplotypes by comparing genetic distances to the published modals. However there is a problem with this. And it becomes very apparent when your working with I1A Ultra-Norse.

    At the bottom of this message is a post that was made by Ken I found on a rootsweb forum, and it seems to explain why this is an issue. But to sum this up. If you read the message it becomes very apparent that if you compare things this way genetic distance, you might get an erronous result that looks like ultra-norse especially if your just compariing 12 markers using ftdna.

    The key is DYS462, according to the sentence below ken is apparently saying you cannot properly classify someone as Ultra-Norse unless you test DYS462.

    The sentence text is below

    H1 and H5 sit on opposite sides of the big divide of I1a which occured when DYS462 changed from 12 to 13. DYS462 is an extremely slow mutating STR.

    Thus it is essentual to test DYS462 in order to properly classify a project participant as I1A-Ultra-Norse.

    My own experience has shown that you can get a comparison that only seems to indicate ultra-norse, with only 1 point difference between it and I1A-AS, leaning towards Ultra-Norse, however once you test DYS462, the comparison becomes even between I1A Ultra-Norse and I1A-AS (same distance), with DYS462 being the only way to tell whether the subject is I1A-AS or Ultra-Norse.

    Here is the text of the message post I found that ken wrote.

    From: "Ken Nordtvedt" < [email protected]>
    Subject: Siimplicity of "Ultra-Norse" I1a haplotype
    Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:01:48 -0600
    Earlier today I submitted a message in which I showed that the "Anglo-Saxon" I1a haplotype, called H1, had four distinct varieties as extended to 14 loci. Collectively, these four varieties of H1 plus their one-step mutated neighbors at their eight extension loci, account for almost half the 247 H1 haplotypes found in the Sorenson database. I remind you of what the root H1 haplotype is: at DYS 19, 390, (385a,b), 455, 462 it has repeats 14, 22, (13, 14), 8, 12.

    I did a similar analysis with the "Ultra-Norse" I1a haplotype, H5, whose root form at the previously indicated loci is

    H5 = 14, 23, (14, 15), 8, 13.

    It was named "Ultra-Norse" because it is hardly found at all back in the German and Netherlands populations. It is a reasonable hypothesis that the founder of H5 lived in Norway or Sweden. H1 and H5 sit on opposite sides of the big divide of I1a which occured when DYS462 changed from 12 to 13. DYS462 is an extremely slow mutating STR.

    There are 84 H5 haplotypes found in the Sorenson database. I found it only marginally possible to find distinct varieties of this extended haplotype by studying correlations between repeat values at the additional loci. But three such marginal varieties can be claimed. At the additional loci DYS 449, 461, and C4 these varieties have the repeat values

    H5a = H5 + 29, 11, 21
    H5b = H5 + 28, 11, 22
    H5c = H5 + 29, 10, 22

    No correlations for any of the other loci could be found to exist at a statistically significant level.

    These three varieties of H5 are close together, each being only two steps of mutation from the other two. They can hardly be called varieties, and there is no obvious way to state which variety is the modal form of H5; the haplotype population clusters about equally about all three forms. Remarkably, the total count of haplotypes found within one mutational step from one or the other of these three extensions is 84 --- the entire population of H5 in the Sorenson database! This seems consistent with the idea that H5 is a very young haplotype variety which was founded up in Scandinavia some time after the I1a population was established up there. While I1a haplotype variety H1 was found to have a mature structure of varieties, H5 is found to be quite simple in its structure.