Anglo-Saxon (Germanic) Y-DNA Project

[curious1]

I found a thread called the Anglo-Saxon (Germanic) Y-DNA Project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...xonydnaproject

The requirements to join this project are quite stringent:

This project was created to find a common ancestor among those who have surnames of an Anglo Saxon origin or those who live or have ancestry in the lands once occupied by the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians andFranks.

I will accept only those people that have tested with a SNP associated with Germanic origins.

The project admin was nice enough to let me join the project; I supplied him with my haplogroups (R-M269, H11a, and WAMH) and a brief family history of some ancestors being from Holland. Their family name was originally Mensink, Americanized to Mensing, and mentioned that I remembered really only one name from a genealogy that an uncle did: von Voelkker from the 17th Century. I mention this frequently as the "von" is German, "van" is Dutch, and the double k's in Voelkker is distinctly Dutch. The name seems to be an anomaly of sorts.

Anyhow, I always thought that Anglo-Saxon was Atlantic coast European: the British islands, France and the rest. Inland Germany was more Vandals and the assorted Goths and all. From the admin:

The Saxons were a Germanic people first appeared in the beginning of the Christian era.

The Saxons were said to have lived in the south Jutland Peninsula in the north of what is now modern day Germany.


I've yet to take the extra SNP tests that the R1b projects offer, so my membership may be terminated if they don't match the ones defining direct Germanic ancestry. But inland Europe haplogroups, weren't there a lot of I and G haplogroups, along with R1a?

Interesting project, nonetheless.

[curious1]

R-Z2573

Got my M343 backbone test back and now I'm haplogroup R-Z2573. Cut-and-paste:

Haplogroup R-P312 is the descendant of the major R-P25 (aka R-M343) lineage and is the most common in Central Europe, Spain, France, Portugal, and the British Isles

I don't know if this lineage is in keeping with what this project's goals are. Definite Anglo-Saxon geography, but Germanic origins might be missing. Anyway, this is where I am for the present until science makes new discoveries.

[lgmayka]

Got my M343 backbone test back and now I'm haplogroup R-Z2573.

According to YFull, Z2573 is (directly) downstream from DF27. I would not call that specifically Anglo-Saxon.

[curious1]

A Could-Be

According to YFull, Z2573 is (directly) downstream from DF27. I would not call that specifically Anglo-Saxon.

I asked this on another forum and got this as a response. Gonna fly with it for now:


DF27 is Celtic / Proto-Celtic. P305 > M42 > M168 > P143 > M89 > M578 > P128 > M526 > M45 > M207 > P231 > M343 > M269 > L150 > L23 > L51 > L151 aka P310 > P311 > P312 (men were Proto-Celtic, Indo-European, nomadic herders from steppes of Russia and Ukraine north of Black Sea and, after reaching Europe 2300-1800 BCE [aka BC], spread west from the Western Rhine River Basin [not the Eastern Rhine River Basin as the R-P310 >R-U106 (aka S21) branch] > DF27 (man with mutation likely born near French-Spanish border c. 4,000 years ago/c. 1700 BCE) > ZZ12_1 (i.e., DF27+, Z195-) > L881 (perhaps occurred in France/Spain/Portugal; my speculation only) >thirty-three not-as-yet-ordered mutations .… >A7385 (perhaps occurred England, even in Lancashire; my speculation only) > other later mutations ….. present day. The direct ancestors of R-DF27 moved through German areas but were not the Anglo-Saxons of later years. This is my understanding.


Now, the project in question is seeking those who are of Germanic origins, though they live in Anglo-Saxon geographic regions. Those regions had many travelers throughout the ages, and obviously blood lines became mixed. You'll see the reader who responded to me stated that "...direct ancestors of R-DF27 moved through German areas but were not the Anglo-Saxons of later years." If a project (FTDNA or any other) can fine tune this science good enough to pick through this, that's great. Personally I think a Germanic origins Anglo-Saxon project is sort of audacious to begin with, but the science is getting better so there's probably a chance of it bearing fruit.

No comment on why I'd post a thread like this in a Scandinavian forum?

[dna]

[----] No comment on why I'd post a thread like this in a Scandinavian forum?

Jutland is part of Scandinavia. Modern Danes come from Jutes mixed with ancient Danes.

Mr W

[curious1]

Found This

Jutland is part of Scandinavia. Modern Danes come from Jutes mixed with ancient Danes.

Mr W

Another answer I got:

The Angles, Saxons, Jutes and other Germanic tribes are largely Y-DNA haplogroup I1. [ IJ (38,000 years ago) > I (25,000 years ago in Balkans) > pre-I1 (20,000 years ago) > I1 (5,000 years ago in Scandinavia) > I1a (2,000 years ago) ..…). See website, http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...A.shtml#nordic . Haplogroup I1 through the migrations of people with that haplogroup became first Nordic and then Germanic. I1 is a major haplogroup for both Germanic and Norse-Viking invaders of the British Isles. The haplogroup, I1-M253 et al, is the indicator of such Anglo-Saxon and Norse-Viking invaders. The haplogroup, R-DF27, and its sub-clades, are Celtic/Proto-Celtic, not Anglo-Saxon. This is my understanding which contradicts the conclusions from my long ago North American school days that there were no Celts in Post-Roman England, only victorious Anglo-Saxons and later victorious French-Normans (except for the Celtic Welsh).

That's interesting. I'd figured haplogroup I was Viking, but didn't know it was also Anglo-Saxon to that extent.

"Proto-Celtic."

[curious1]

This has created a spirited conversation. I repost a couple of responses I've gotten on another forum; I hope the author's don't mind as their responses are quite interesting and seem knowledgeable. The first:

Eupedia is grossly oversimplifying this; maybe not as grossly as the spokesman for BritainsDNA typically does, but anyway what is said there is just a suggestion of some trends as seen by Maciamo Hay, with one eye shut. He knows one can't equate a single haplogroup with an ethnicity, language family, or anything else that broad. I1-M253 might be considered a pretty strong indicator of ancient migration from places that now speak Nordic and Germanic languages. But several other populations have lived in those places -- before I1, and alongside it, and since; and several other haplogroups migrated (to the Isles) from them. Including some subclades of DF27, U106, other branches of I, etc. This is a DF27 forum and I don't really want to belabor this, but some of our Dutch, Swedish, Polish and other members (who are DF27+) know better. Don't believe everything you read on the web.

Then by another writer:

There is something interesting to discuss, however probably not on this forum. Associating Germanic features as defined by Tacitus with haplogroups U106 and subclades of df27 as mentioned by R.H., doesn't hurt my understanding too much because, after all, they are all R1b Indo-European subclades that may have split in one thousand years and that's nothing in term of phenotypic change. But I have a problem with Haplogroup I being also 'Germanic' because the split is much more ancient. Perhaps Haplogroup 'I' could represent the true original Germanic phenotype, that some have associated with robust features, perhaps as the result with a high load of an ancient hybridization with Neanderthals or with primitive Cromagnoid hybrids of Neanderthals. living far North (The Giants?). By the time of Tacitus, most of these 'Nordic' features may have been passed to R1b-U106, which would make them 'secondary Germans'. Well, I know here is not the forum for that but if you open the question somewhere, let me know.

I've emailed this Anglo-Saxon project's admin and told him of my snp result. I really didn't know if I was eligible to join or not when I found it, and figured he'd let me know if I was a member that would aid his research or not. Never heard back from him yet.

I've read about a BritainDNA company before, but haven't found much about it on the Web. If I'm understanding my snp results on my Haplotree page, I'm negative for U106 as it's in red. Going by the color coding, I'm still waiting for results for FGC5336, DF27, Z198, Z156 and FGC3681. The only other order I made that's yet to come in is the M269 test. These snp results must be included in that test rather than the M343 backbone test or they'd be either green or red now. I can tell the difference between the "Presumed Positive" and "Test in Progress" color coding and my M269 shows in green already. But that test is still "Pending" according to my order page. Maybe that was in the M343 test, but the FTDNA operator I spoke with said M269 wasn't. That's why I bought two.

Anyway, "proto Celtic." I'm in America, and I've taken an autosomal test with another company along with their Neanderthal Index test. I feel more comfortable with the tests I've taken at FTDNA, but the Neanderthal thing was fun. I've realized I have a sloping forehead which I never noticed before, but I don't think I have an occipital bun.

[curious1]

Only From the P312 Project, But Still...

This is a cut-and-paste from the R-P312 Project. I leave the author's name out for privacy concerns, but those of you privy to these projects will probably recognize it from the writing. The subject matter appears to pertain to this Anglo-Saxon project, as well as who knows how many other European yDNA ancestry projects/forums there are. Incredible research:

YSNP names like P312, P312/DF27, P312/L21/DF63 just refer to stable mutations in your YDNA that occur about every 60-100 years (2-4 generations) in your male line.

The first letter or two of a YSNP name just refers to the group or lab that found and registered it.

From YSNPs we can make YDNA ancestral trees of your male line descent, and from this you can find out how you are related to each other.

About a couple of years ago FTDNA came out with a Big-Y test, which tests almost all of the stable & readable portions of your YDNA to find your YSNPs (male line ancestors), where they look at 12-14 million of your 59 million YDNA addresses.

A good example of YTrees created from Big-Y testing is from my R-DF19 Project where we tested 145 Big-Ys out of about 215 members so far, and our R-DF19 YTree has about 620 shared YSNPs (male ancestors) showing all of our connections to date, below our common Southern Scandinavian DF19 first ancestor.

Our DF19 ancestor's location was derived from our extensive Big-Y testing and known migration patterns. Most of his descendants stayed in Southern Scandinavian for thousands of years. Some P312/DF19 are still in Scandinavia, as are P312/L238 (also from Scandinavia), as well as smaller percentages of their YDNA "brothers", including L21/U152/DF27/DF99.

Many DF19 later moved away as Jutes/Angles/Saxons/Frisians and later from the same areas as Vikings: as Normans (Normandy/Britain/Italy), and as Danes/Swedes/Norse Vikings down the Atlantic Continental coast as well as directly to the British Isles, including Ireland.

Smaller numbers of DF19s made a second move and came from Flanders to England and Scotland as Merchants and the Weaving Industry, not much later than the Normans.

Our many German DF19s probably came during the many waves of Saxon expansion, though there is always the possibility of Vikings and later Merchants descending down Germany's many river networks, during the Millennium, including the later Hanseatic League traders and their representatives. We probably also have a Frank or Visigoth DF19 about somewhere, just due to geographical proximity and time.

We are finding about 43 YSNPs on average below our common P312/DF19 ancestor. Since P312/DF27, P312/L21, P312/U152, P312/L238 and P312/DF99 are ancestral YSNP "brothers", I would expect each male line below these YSNP "brothers" would also find about 43 average YSNPs: shared and "private" (not yet shared with any other Big-Y result).

So to your question, these men were probably born about 4000+ years ago, so any tribe we would associate in historical times would not correlate to any particular YSNP. On the other hand a YSNP would correspond to one ancestor, living among many with different YDNA YSNP lines, hence the melting pot, even of Europe.

Southern Scandinavia has roughly one third each of Haplogroups I1, R1b and R1a. R1b includes R1b-P312 (us) and his YSNP smaller "brother" R1b-U106. R1b-U106 is very strong as a percent of people in Frisia (Netherlands) and Saxony (below Denmark), and also strong in Southern Scandinavia. From this, one begins to believe it is possible R1b-U106's "brother", our R1b-P312, was also born nearby, near his YDNA "children" P312/DF19 and P312/L238 ancestral homes in/near Southern Scandinavia. The region of greatest R1b YSNP diversity can point to it's original location.

Many also now believe, from recent genetic YSNP archaeological finds of people from before 2000 BC (4000+ yrs. ago), that our R1b ancestors may have come across the Northern Russian Steppe and then along the Baltic Sea, which would line up with where a great diversity of R1b-P312 and his "brother" R1b-U106 are found.

Just food for thought, not Gospel, as YSNPs and dating of same is a rapidly moving science (with some inspiration "art" thrown in), as more new finds from our ancient R1b-P312 burials are found and their YSNPs analyzed, and remains dated.

It is amazing how much we have all learned about our YDNA ancestors over the last few years, and I expect that we will learn so much more, and very soon.

Thanks to all for participating in this adventure. Let me know what you think, and if this answers your questions...

[curious1]

Activity Page

Dated 4/2 on the project's new Activity Page:

Welcome to the new members. We now have an activity page, so hopefully we can start some mutual banter! Best wishes David (Group administrator)

This group didn't have one of these forum-type pages before a month or so ago, and now has a handful of posts on it. I don't think this could have been termed a "mysterious" project in any sense, but there does seem to have been some recent activity or changes done to it in the past few months that might make it more accessible and/or informative to the general public.

Does this aid or thwart the project's original intent? Don't know the answer to that myself as I'm just a mere DF27-type Z2573, but whatever the cause the project's got a different appearance now.

In the interim I've found YSEQ and've taken some more SNP tests there. Lot of negatives but I've had the FTDNA's finding of Z2573 seconded, and now I'm waiting for a second opinion of DF27. All offered at a much more affordable price for hit-and-miss SNP tests. I think the word here is "random."