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R1a says I'm Kurgan, am I also Viking?

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  • #16
    There are much myths concerning these "Kvens". First of all I originate from the Finnmark area in Norway, and believe me the traces of Kvens in my area is very limited. It is correct that there has been some Finnic immigration to this area but that occured in the last two centuries, possible from Finns that had this idea that they where "Kvens" or came from this "area" you mentioned, but still it doesnt change the fact that they are Finns or possible assimilated Saami population in Finland. They speak a old fashion finnic but still finnic. I am myself a Sea-Saami anchestry in this area and it is hard for me to find any traces of some ancient "Kvens" in names of places. The whole map is full of old Saami names and some local modern names given by finnic immigrants. I also know that there is Saami substrata in Finnic names of places all around Finland reminding about a much bigger cultural area in older history.

    In regard to Ottars descriptions the people he observed in the Finnmark area was actually sea-saami peoples. There is some stereotypes about the Saami that they are all raindeer hurders but actually the majority of them have alwaysed live close to the coast and have been skilled boatbuilders and fishermens combined with hunting and maybe a small amount of domesticated raindeers.


    Originally posted by Eki
    The Norwegian Vikings knew about the Kveens in northern Scandinavia, so they must have met them:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quen

    Already during the first millennium A.D. the northernmost Finns on the Scandinavian peninsula were called Kveens by the Norse - the Norwegians -, mainly because the historical areas of Kainuu' - up to middle ages - reached much further up north-west and north than at the present time.

    In the past, centuries ago, the traditional lands of the Kveens (a.k.a. the Kveenland Gvenland or Quenland) reached all the way from the above mentioned costal areas of the Arctic Ocean in the northernmost tip of the Scandinavian peninsula down to the middle parts of today's Sweden and Finland, reaching - on the Finnish side - the moderm day provinces of Kainuu and Oulu (Oulun lääni in Finnish) and - on the Swedish side - the areas by the Gulf of Bothnia, including the modern day cities of Luleå and Umeå, and - on west-east dimension - from the costal areas of the Atlantic Ocean in North-Western Scandinavia (now part of Norway) all the way to the White Sea in east (now part of Russia).

    Traditionally - already during the Viking ages, and before -, the Norvegians have called the above described area - i.e. the entire northernmost territories of Scandinavia east from the Norvegian coast - Kvenland, the land of the Kveens (or Kvens / Cwens) . By Kveens the Norwegians have always meant people of Finnic background, in the middle ages the Finnish people of Kainuu, kainuulaiset as the Finns call them still today.

    The Finns, however, have known a large part of the same area throughout the centuries as Lapland in north and Kainuu south from there; and today south-east from Lapland. In today's republic of Finland Kainuu lies in the North-Eatern part of the country, below (south from) Lapland, much smaller than in its clory days.

    The earliest known written mentionings of the Kveens in history are from the period of the Vikings. However, the stories of of the epic Kalevala are - to a large extend - based ot the history of the Kveens, i.e. the people of Kainuu (in Finnish).

    According to the Northern Norwegian Viking leader Ottar from Björkoy in Hålogaland (Haalogaland) (see also: Ottar from Hålogaland, near Troms (Tromsa), as well as the sagas by Egil the Finnish Kveens (a.k.a. Cwen people or Cwens, Quens) were in charge of the large northernmost territories of the Scandinavian Peninsula during the 9th century AD, and presumably long before that.


    Ottar met the English King Alfred the Great in England in the end of the 9th century and made a thorough account to him of the life in Northern Norway and the Kveens, and about his exploration trip to the White Sea. This account was included to the translation by Alfred the Great of the World History of Orosius. This was the first genuine and comprenensive account of the North, and thus it is a principle source in the exploration of the Nordic history.

    According to these and other historical documents the Norvegians and the Finnish Kveens united there forces on the 9th century against the attacks by the Finnish Karelians who - with the assistance of Novgorod - made advances up North, particularly coming to the 11th century.

    Some Finnish tribes fought with the vikings, others against them. In 1154 AD The Arab historian and scientist Al Idrisi wrote that the King of Finland has possessions in Norway. In 1187 AD - According to a Swedish chronicle and some other documentation - the Finnish Karelians conquered the Swedish capital and destroyed it.

    In 1251 the Karelians fought against the Norvegians and in 1271 the Kveens and the Karelians cooperated in battles against the Norvegians in Haalogaland. These battles had a lasting effect in life in the entire Northern Scandinavia.

    The Finnish Kveens and other Finnish or Fenno-Ugric (closely related to Finns) groups participated in the Viking conquests in Russia, the British Isles and elsewhere.

    During several following centuries a gradual and slow process of a Swedish expansion in today's Finland and the formation of Sweden-Finland took place, not through any wars or battles fought between Finns and Swedes, but rather scirmishes between Finns themselves, others symphatizing with the catholic Swedes and others with the orthodox Russians. This period saw many tendencies and attempts to autonomy for the eastern half of Sweden-Finland, i.e. today's Finland.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Noaide
      There are much myths concerning these "Kvens". First of all I originate from the Finnmark area in Norway, and believe me the traces of Kvens in my area is very limited. It is correct that there has been some Finnic immigration to this area but that occured in the last two centuries, possible from Finns that had this idea that they where "Kvens" or came from this "area" you mentioned, but still it doesnt change the fact that they are Finns or possible assimilated Saami population in Finland. They speak a old fashion finnic but still finnic. I am myself a Sea-Saami anchestry in this area and it is hard for me to find any traces of some ancient "Kvens" in names of places. The whole map is full of old Saami names and some local modern names given by finnic immigrants. I also know that there is Saami substrata in Finnic names of places all around Finland reminding about a much bigger cultural area in older history.

      In regard to Ottars descriptions the people he observed in the Finnmark area was actually sea-saami peoples. There is some stereotypes about the Saami that they are all raindeer hurders but actually the majority of them have alwaysed live close to the coast and have been skilled boatbuilders and fishermens combined with hunting and maybe a small amount of domesticated raindeers.
      We are not talking about people who are now called as Kveens, we are talking about people who lived 1000 years ago. Even if those Kveens were in fact Saami, they cooperated and fought with Norwegians against the Karelians:

      "According to these and other historical documents the Norvegians and the Finnish Kveens united there forces on the 9th century against the attacks by the Finnish Karelians who - with the assistance of Novgorod - made advances up North, particularly coming to the 11th century."

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Eki
        1) Eki: “ : “Already during the first millennium A.D. the northernmost Finns on the Scandinavian peninsula were called Kveens by the Norse - the Norwegians -, mainly because the historical areas of Kainuu' - up to middle ages - reached much further up north-west and north than at the present time.”
        2) Eki: “Traditionally - already during the Viking ages, and before -, the Norvegians have called the above described area - i.e. the entire northernmost territories of Scandinavia east from the Norvegian coast - Kvenland, the land of the Kveens (or Kvens / Cwens) . By Kveens the Norwegians have always meant people of Finnic background, in the middle ages the Finnish people of Kainuu, kainuulaiset as the Finns call them still today. ”
        3) Eki: “The earliest known written mentionings of the Kveens in history are from the period of the Vikings. However, the stories of of the epic Kalevala are - to a large extend - based ot the history of the Kveens, i.e. the people of Kainuu (in Finnish). ”

        Interesting discussion you have here, but let me comment and correct on some of these assumptions. It was not the Vikings first mentioned the ancestors of the present Saami culture and people in written text.

        The oldest written source of knowledge on the Sami's is the Roman historian Tacitus' who describes “fenni” in a book from 98 A.D, although his account most certainly was based on hearsay only.

        http://www.itv.se/boreale/samieng.htm (se under history).

        It is probable that the “skridfinns” are equivalent with the Saami population in this source. The Saami used skis (the same as “skrid”) and historical genetics supports that the Saami people is very old, the Saami motif (U5b1) dating 15.000- 10.000 years from present day.

        The just mentioned source Paulus Diaconus differentiated between the ”skridfinns” that herded reindeers and those who did not, i.e. the Quens. The term Quen in this context is not the same as Cwens. The latter describes people from Finland that immigrated from poverty to the traditional Saami areas roughly between 1600 and 1800.


        The Viking Age (between 800-1030) with its Norse sagas and also the Finish Kalevala (the first edition appearing 1835) are of more recent origin. The last one is central in Finish identity building, like the Viking culture has been overvalued in Norwegian national identity building after 1905. A lot of myths have been created in this nation building process, myths that in retrospect are shown to be false. Additionally the Norse Sagas have content that did not fit in to the picture of Norwegian nationalism and where therefore left out from public education, not unlike exclusion of the Saami culture.

        http://www.thearctic.is/PDF/Synopsis...ions%20PDF.pdf

        Read this brief history of the Saami from the historical synopsis from the Saami –UN relation.


        Originally posted by Eki
        “In the past, centuries ago, the traditional lands of the Kveens (a.k.a. the Kveenland Gvenland or Quenland) reached all the way from the above mentioned costal areas of the Arctic Ocean in the northernmost tip of the Scandinavian peninsula down to the middle parts of today's Sweden and Finland, reaching - on the Finnish side - the moderm day provinces of Kainuu and Oulu (Oulun lääni in Finnish) and - on the Swedish side - the areas by the Gulf of Bothnia, including the modern day cities of Luleå and Umeå, and - on west-east dimension - from the costal areas of the Atlantic Ocean in North-Western Scandinavia (now part of Norway) all the way to the White Sea in east (now part of Russia). ”
        The history from the Arctic Institute seems more precise, citation follows: “The Saami followed their food sources that moved northward behind the retreating glaciers. They eventually inhabited all of present-day Norway, Sweden, Finland, and the Kola Peninsula southward almost to present-day Tallinn, Estonia”

        In these links you see examples of archaeological findings that support the presence of Saami groups of people as far south as the Ladoga and Onega lakes in today’s Karelia (Russia):

        http://heninen.net/seid/english.htm

        http://heninen.net/vottovaara/english.htm

        http://heninen.net/labyrinth/english.htm



        Searching for genetic traces and roots without digging deep into history and the created myths can be a dead-end-street. It is important to remember the many political agendas official history serves.

        As when Professor David Goldstein of University College London punctured the myth (or lie) of the Vikings conquering of the Orkney Islands. Comparing Y-chromosomes of Celtic and Norwegians (supposed to descend from the Vikings) he found no matches. In a restudy the research group interestingly found that the Orkney (Celtic) males turned out to match indistinguishably with the Basque population. Conclusion: The Vikings must have been great braggarts’.

        There are still some other important facts to take into account when it comes to Viking genes.

        The Black Death had already in 1470 reduced the Norwegian population to one third of what it was prior to the plague. Mostly it was the population in towns and more densely populated areas that died. The plague continued to kill until 1654 (last victim) leaving most of the at that time poor Norwegian survivors in a very week condition. In Norwegian terms the immigration of mostly Swedes, Danish, Germans, English and Dutch was immense from 1300. The original Old Norse population and thereby Viking genes was dramatically reduced in the Norwegian gene pool as a consequence of the Black Death. It would be interesting to hear expert views about the magnitude of the genetic consequences of the Black Death, both for Norway and in general.

        The genetic landscape of Norway today may be very different from the Viking ages.

        http://www.leipzig-school.eva.mpg.de...n_joblingy.pdf

        This article shows a map over the frequencies of male haplogroups. Here you can see that the hg I is more frequent in the Saami than in other European populations.
        Last edited by Wena; 8th January 2006, 07:44 AM.

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        • #19
          Interesting reading, Wena.

          I'm of hg I. My closest REO hits after Finland are from Norway and Iceland considering the number of tested) and also from the British Isles (Scotland, England, Ireland,Shetland, Isle of Man and Wales). Through genealogy I've traced my ancestors to 16th century Savo (south-eastern Finland) and Karelia. Their last name then was Lostarin, Losterin, Klostarij, Klostarinen, etc.
          (there were various ways of writing the name), which come from the scandinavian word Kloster. The first name Eric or later it's Finnish derivatives have run in my family since the 16th century, and I thought it may go even much further to history than that. Therefore I searched familysearch.org for the name "Eric Kloster". The only hit was an Erich Erichssen Kloster who had been born in early 19th century in Hordaland in south-western Norway. Near his birth place is a fjord called Klosterfjorden, which has probably been named after the Halsnoy monastery (kloster) nearby. The monastery was built by Erik Skakke in 1164. According to Ysearch.org, I also have a close DNA hit in Rogaland, just south of Hordaland. I have a hunch that my ancestor might have come from Norway to Finland in the 13th century. It's known that Swedish, Finnish and Norwegian crusaders had at least in 1240 attacked Novgorod at the river Neva (the river that goes from the Gulf of Finland to Lake Ladoga in Karelia). I guess that you as Norwegians know more about the history of Norway than I. Do you know when did the Norwegians start to use inherited last names? Also, if you have information on Norwegian crusaders, I'd be very interested to hear.
          Last edited by Eki; 18th January 2006, 08:09 AM.

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