Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Genograhic - Depth of Phylogeny

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Genograhic - Depth of Phylogeny

    I have tried to find out from folks at Genographic Project about the depth of results of mtDNA and NRY, but I haven't been satisfied by the answer. I need to know whether sub-clade information would be available from the test or only the broad haplogroup would be determined.
    More specifically, would a NRY result simply state, for example, that I am R1* (M-173) or go deeper and say that I belong to sub-clade R1a1b (R-157)? Similarly, would the mtDNA result just state that my maternal lineage belongs to haplogroup 'U' or, would it go deeper to state that it belongs to U2a/b/c (South Asian clades), for instance.
    Such sub-clade information is important to determine the human migration patterns and one could establish his ancestral geo-location based on the current concentrations of various sub-clades. Unless this is known, I don't think a R or a U tag alone would be money's worth.

    Kaiser

  • #2
    Originally posted by Kaiser Tufail
    I have tried to find out from folks at Genographic Project about the depth of results of mtDNA and NRY, but I haven't been satisfied by the answer. I need to know whether sub-clade information would be available from the test or only the broad haplogroup would be determined.
    More specifically, would a NRY result simply state, for example, that I am R1* (M-173) or go deeper and say that I belong to sub-clade R1a1b (R-157)? Similarly, would the mtDNA result just state that my maternal lineage belongs to haplogroup 'U' or, would it go deeper to state that it belongs to U2a/b/c (South Asian clades), for instance.
    Such sub-clade information is important to determine the human migration patterns and one could establish his ancestral geo-location based on the current concentrations of various sub-clades. Unless this is known, I don't think a R or a U tag alone would be money's worth.

    Kaiser
    My understanding, as far as the public participation in the Genographic Project, is that the kind of test they're performing is reading STRs only and then using a prediction algorithm to calculate you haplogroup; no SNP testing; no sub-clades; but maybe I'm misinformed??

    Comment


    • #3
      I thought this might be of interest to those that are following this subject. I sent them an e-mail; they finally answered it. Both are included here. I get the impression that the real goal/ participation goes far beyond the preliminary results. They want to establish a massive database that researchers can analyze for decades to come. I suspect that the only reasons they are selling it to the public are: a) to raise funds to support the endeavor, etc., b) they can -there is a market value in America & other places for the results they will provide.

      The response from the Genographic Project at National Geographic:

      Dear Mr. Peterman,

      Thank you for your interest in the Genographic Project. The public participation component of the project represents a unique opportunity to participate in an ongoing scientific research effort, and you ask some important questions regarding its aims.

      The first thing that is important to realize is that inclusion of your personal anthropological data into the Genographic database is entirely voluntary, and you will have the option to decide whether to include your data only after you have received the results from your kit.

      In the event that you choose to include your results in the Genographic database, they will be used in the statistical analysis that comprise an important part of the project. The primary reason why your data are valuable in the database is that the public participation component allows scientists to ask questions that are not possible by analyzing solely results from the indigenous samples. When we think about anthropological genetics we are typically referring to a deeper timescale, the period of thousands or tens of thousands of years necessary for genetic drift to influence the distribution of mutations both within and across poplulations. A potentially frustrating consequence of this is that it is very difficult to resolve relatively recent events that have comprised human movements, expansions, or replacements. However, with volunteers allowing their public participation data to be included in the database, researchers working on the project will be able to ask questions about much more recent human events that have given rise to the current, and often cosmopolitan, distribution of people around the world. Questions about the diaspora events that have given rise to high population density urban settings, for example: What is the genetic makeup of Chicago? -or- What was the genetic composition and geographic distribution of the waves of migration that brought immigrants to the US.

      It is important to realize that the public participation component represents one important part of the database, and is somewhat different from the data generated from indigeous samples collected during the field research component of the Genographic Project. Because the indigenous samples volunteered in the field retain the geographic and cultural context in which their genetic diversity arose, they are analyzed to a much higher degree of resolution. The purpose is to reveal as much anthropological information from these samples as possible, which is necessary to fill in the gaps of knowledge and reconstruct very specific events that have comprised human history.

      However, as noted above the analysis of only one type of data can permit only a limited spectrum of historical inquiry, and it is only with both of these types of important information, both public participation and indigenous, that the Genographic Project will be able to comprehensively reconstruct the events throughout human history that have placed all of humanity around the world.

      Thank you again for your interest, and best regards,
      The Genographic Team





      My original letter:



      "Since I have already been tested by Family Tree DNA, I have one remaining question:

      Would my results, if submitted to the Genographic Project database, actually be of value to the Genographic Project? I know that there would be a personal value to me, in that I would get the chart, etc. confirming my place within the human family (which I already know).

      But would my results actually be used for analysis within the Gengraphic Project? My degree (BA, Northwestern University, 1981) is in Anthropology. I specialized in Archaeology. Anyhow, I am interested in the anthropological value in this data.

      As an American of European descent, I am interested in seeing the y-DNA clade of R1b refined so that several subclades of component populations can be identified by SNPs. I think the solution might simply be to make a lot more R1b samples available for analysis.

      I will be looking for the link at the Family Tree DNA webpage.

      Timothy Peterman "

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by T E Peterman
        I thought this might be of interest to those that are following this subject. I sent them an e-mail; they finally answered it. Both are included here. I get the impression that the real goal/ participation goes far beyond the preliminary results. They want to establish a massive database that researchers can analyze for decades to come. I suspect that the only reasons they are selling it to the public are: a) to raise funds to support the endeavor, etc., b) they can -there is a market value in America & other places for the results they will provide.

        The response from the Genographic Project at National Geographic:

        ...


        My original letter:



        "Since I have already been tested by Family Tree DNA, I have one remaining question:

        Would my results, if submitted to the Genographic Project database, actually be of value to the Genographic Project? I know that there would be a personal value to me, in that I would get the chart, etc. confirming my place within the human family (which I already know).

        But would my results actually be used for analysis within the Gengraphic Project? My degree (BA, Northwestern University, 1981) is in Anthropology. I specialized in Archaeology. Anyhow, I am interested in the anthropological value in this data.

        As an American of European descent, I am interested in seeing the y-DNA clade of R1b refined so that several subclades of component populations can be identified by SNPs. I think the solution might simply be to make a lot more R1b samples available for analysis.

        I will be looking for the link at the Family Tree DNA webpage.

        Timothy Peterman "
        I spent the $15, but see absolutely no value for the money spent. Anyone can see the pre-defined group they'll place you in by chosing "genetic markers" on the "atlas of human journey" page. I can see no use (except for marketing) for the personal questions they ask. like "what's your zip code?" and "what year were you born?". They only ask about what country your parents and grand parents were from and what language they spoke. So if you family's been in North America for more that 2 generations you're "american". What is your mother's ethnicity? - type in your own answer. What is your father's ethnicity? - wonder what they'll do with my English/Dutch/German/French Ashkenaz answer?

        Save your $15.00

        Comment


        • #5
          What the $15 is for

          My understanding of why the Genographic Project charges $15 is so they can fund the research of poorer regions which might otherwise be neglected. I found that to be sufficient cause for me to pay the price. I didn't get a lot out of the results since I was already familiar with the general outlines. I will say the placement of the original K* in the Pamir Plateau region adds substance to my speculation that the Tarim Basin may have been the incubator from which many the populations of Eurasia sprang. I know the map does not show anybody living in the Tarim Basin, but the idea that people were living on the Pamir Plateau rather than in the Tarim Basin during the iceage is, quite frankly, absurd.

          Among the things not addressed by the Genographic Project is the significant presence of R1b in Armenia. I'll have to grant that the nomenclature changes have me a bit confused, but there is no doubt that the findings reported for this study are significant:

          http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/We...01-Armenia.pdf

          "The haplotype distribution and pattern of genetic distances suggest a high degree of genetic isolation in the mountainous southern and eastern regions, while in the northern, central and western regions there has been greater admixture with populations from neighbouring Middle Eastern countries. Georgia, to the north of Armenia, also appears genetically more distinct, suggesting that in the past Trans-Caucasia may have acted as a genetic barrier. A Bayesian full-likelihood analysis of the Armenian sample yields a mean estimate for the start of population growth of 4.8 thousand years ago (95% credible interval: 2.0–11.1), consistent with the onset of Neolithic farming. The more isolated southern and eastern regions
          have high frequencies of a microsatellite defined cluster within haplogroup 1 that is centred on a modal haplotype one step removed from the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, the centre of a cluster found at high frequencies in England, Friesland and Atlantic populations, and which may represent a remnant paternal signal of a Paleolithic migration event."

          ...

          "Wilson et al. (2001) have observed haplotype 3 (which they have called the
          Atlantic Modal Haplotype) to be modal in the Welsh, Basques and Irish. They
          suggest that it is a signature haplotype of the Palaeolithic peopling of
          Europe. It is interesting to observe that the Atlantic Modal Haplotype was
          found in the separate isolated regional samples of Syunik (7.9%) and
          Karabakh (2.8%) but not in the other four Armenian regions. Furthermore,
          the modal haplotype in these two regions (haplotype 1) is a one-step
          neighbour of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype that is also found at highest
          frequencies in Syunik and Karabakh (14.3% and 11.2%, respectively). The
          frequencies of the Atlantic Modal Cluster (defined as the Atlantic Modal
          Haplotype plus its one-step neighbours) are 24.3% in Syunik, 14.0% in
          Karabakh, and less than 10.0% in all other regions and data sets in our
          study apart from England (41.0%) and Friesland (36.2%). The frequency in
          Syunik is significantly greater than in all other non-Western European data
          sets included in this study. While it is not possible to discount
          convergent drift as an explanation for these results, it is worth noting
          that the more geographically isolated regions of Armenia differ from those
          areas that are more accessible by displaying a closer genealogical affinity
          to the Atlantic populations. If it is not the consequence of drift, the
          Atlantic Modal Cluster may represent a remnant paternal signal of an
          ancient, possibly pre-Neolithic population that spread from Southeast Asia
          into Europe. It will be interesting to determine whether the Atlantic Modal
          Haplotype and Cluster are detected at high frequencies in other isolated
          locations in future surveys of Europe and the Near East."

          Comment


          • #6
            derinos

            I visited the National Geographic GP website once again after several months, looking for information and found it rather "Korporatische", opaque and hypo-informative.

            It offers no competition against just one evening surfing this forum! But what beautiful Webmeister technology!

            No doubt NG has its own agenda, but public-friendly genetic education is not part of it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by derinos
              I visited the National Geographic GP website once again after several months, looking for information and found it rather "Korporatische", opaque and hypo-informative.

              It offers no competition against just one evening surfing this forum! But what beautiful Webmeister technology!

              No doubt NG has its own agenda, but public-friendly genetic education is not part of it.

              Your post is confusing .....Competition?,...Korporatische"??, opaque and hypo-informative,??


              What information were you looking for at National Geographic GP ?

              Comment


              • #8
                I have gone back to my Genographic Homepage different times.

                I more or less breezed through the site with excitement and missed almost everything in there.

                For instance....I read the information in the little boxes..but I missed the faint up and down arrows at the side of each frame. I was wondering why the storys made little sense.

                I did slide with my mouse over the dots on the time-frame maps for information...but never thought of clicking on them.

                How many others missed stuff like I did?.

                Comment

                Working...
                X