Complete novice

[Llamafarmer]

Hello

Inspired by the Genographic project which got me curious i sent away my cheek swabs and the results are now in. Ive tried to read as much as i can about deciphering the results. My family all come from the same area of Birmingham UK for as long as we can remember.

My Haplogroup is R1b, M343 (Subclade R1b1c, M269) Ive read up on it and its a common european haplogroup dated around the cro magnon. From what ive read is it safe to assume that my particular subclade is more common in western europe especially the basque region of spain and western ireland?

Ive always had a twee notion or romantic affinity with Wales and the Welsh, can my subclade be linked to the celtic people rather than the anglo saxons?

The designations for 12 loci and STR outcomes are as follows...

393 13
19 14
391 10
439 12
389-1 13
389-2 16
388 12
390 25
426 13
385a 12
385b 15
392 13

please forgive my ignorance, what are these and how can they help in finding out which particular area my dna stems from?

[Jim Barrett]

If you haven't done so you should have your sample and results moved to FTDNA. There is no charge for this. I believe they have an upgrade special for people coming from the Genographic Project.

Being with FTDNA you'll be able to join surname and regional projects where you may be able to get the answers you seek.

[T E Peterman]

You might also get a deep clade upgrade. M269+ is rather generic in this day & age.

Current thinking links R1b M269+ NOT with Cro-Magnons or other ancient western Europeans, but with ancient Anatolians and Central Asians. The "invasion" of western Europe by R1b folk happened perhaps 5,000 to 8,000 years ago.

Timothy Peterman

[Llamafarmer]

hi jim, yes i joined ftdna, and joined the smith family surname project... i have also read several articles which seem to say that yes my subclade is western european, which would seem to indicate basque/ western irish and possibly ancient briton.... my blood group is o rh neg which i have also read is prevalent in the basque region...

How can i use my 12 loci designations and str's to find out more? I think i understand that the closer the lower number is to mine the closer we're related, exact numbers indicate a possible paternal line? Ive read so much my head has begun to hurt and some articles seem to contradict each other... is it an exact science or is it still much speculated over?

Id like to try and pin down my ancestors wherabouts to region if possible, will i have to undertake deeper dna marker tests for this?

[gtc]

hi jim, yes i joined ftdna, and joined the smith family surname project... i have also read several articles which seem to say that yes my subclade is western european, which would seem to indicate basque/ western irish and possibly ancient briton.... my blood group is o rh neg which i have also read is prevalent in the basque region...

I guess Smith is one of, if not the, most difficult surnames to research.

If you want to look for relatives over periods of hundreds of years, then I think the common suggestion will be to get more markers tested, up to 67 if you can afford it.

Meanwhile, you should enter those 12 STR values in Ysearch (http://www.ysearch.org/) and see where you sit with potential matches. Note that with 12 markers you will likely find quite a few false positives -- hence the suggestion to get more markers tested.

As for deep ancestry (over periods measured in millenia) you would need to get deep clade tested as suggested. M269 is a very common node in the haplotree.

If you look in this diagram, you'll see that there are many SNPs "downstream" (under) it:

http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=21

I note that you're in Dorset. Are you a member of the Dorset Family History Society? They may not be into genetic genealogy, but you may pick up some useful local stuff there:

http://www.dorsetfhs.org.uk/

[darroll]

I would get on the National Geographic web site and see (Map) what parts of the world your DNA matches.

[Jim Barrett]

How can i use my 12 loci designations and str's to find out more? I think i understand that the closer the lower number is to mine the closer we're related, exact numbers indicate a possible paternal line? Ive read so much my head has begun to hurt and some articles seem to contradict each other... is it an exact science or is it still much speculated over?

This is a new field. There is a lot of false information out there. This is very common. Remember people thought the earth was flat. People thought the earth was the center of the universe.

We have a similar problem here. We are still gathering facts and not everyone agrees on what they mean. Think of your DNA results as being directions to where you live. Your 12 markers would be enough to tell us you live on planet earth. Upgrade to 25 markers and we would know you lived in the UK. Upgrade to 37 markers and we would know which country in the UK. Upgrade to 67 markers and we would know you were in Dorset. This is just an example. Your DNA won't tell anyone where you live!

My point is you need more data. You need to upgrade so your matches will be more meaningful. As already suggested load your data to Ysearch. FTDNA provides a link for doing this on the page showing your Y-DNA matches or your Y-DNA values. Each time you upgrade the link will reappear so the new data can be added. Using their link you don't have to worry about copying the data correctly.

On Ysearch you can see matches that FTDNA doesn't report because they are too distant to be of much value but you can control how big of a difference to see. People who have tested with other companies can also enter their data in Ysearch.

[1798]

Current thinking links R1b M269+ NOT with Cro-Magnons or other ancient western Europeans, but with ancient Anatolians and Central Asians. The "invasion" of western Europe by R1b folk happened perhaps 5,000 to 8,000 years ago.

Timothy Peterman

If R1b entered Europe only 5000 years ago,how did U5 survive in Western Europe for 50,000 years without males? R1b is supposed to be the oldest Ydna in Western Europe.

[finn1031]

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages

Patricia Balaresque et al.

The relative contributions to modern European populations of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers from the Near East have been intensely debated. Haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic. Taken with evidence on the origins of other haplogroups, this indicates that most European Y chromosomes originate in the Neolithic expansion. This reinterpretation makes Europe a prime example of how technological and cultural change is linked with the expansion of a Y-chromosomal lineage, and the contrast of this pattern with that shown by maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA suggests a unique role for males in the transition.

Read: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/

[plowedu]

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages?

This is true for the Y-DNA, but not for the mtDNA. mtDNA data indicate that while these new agriculturalists were incredibly successful at planting their technology in the surrounding groups, they were far less successful at planting their mtDNA seed. Agriculture was quickly and widely adopted, but the mtDNA lineages carried by these Neolithic expansions are found at relatively low frequencies in Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia.

[drouhin]

Would you check the 389-2 value?

ysearch doesn't offer 16 as a value for that locus. Maybe it's 26?

[darroll]

our 389-2 is 28

[rucksack]

our 389-2 is 28

It seems he is DYS389-2 = 29. [13 + 16]

If we are speaking of "Llamafarmer". See point 39 in the following link:

http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers/9.aspx#446