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mt DNA H in North Africa

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  • mt DNA H in North Africa

    There is a new article out based research that provides some evidence for a substantial presence of Iberian H in North Africa. The article attributes this to the post glacial expansion that, as it puts it, expanded to repopulate North Africa as well as Europe from the Iberian Refuge. The article is of course very interesting and informative simply because it documents the presence of Iberian H in North Africa. I am not sure of the foundation for its linking the mt H finds to the alleged post glacial expansion much less to the repopulation of either Europe or North Africa. It may be another example of proving what you assume from the starting point of the assumption. Nevertheless, it is well worth the read for the person who is interested in how population genetic research hooks up with physical anthropology to form the bases of that which sometimes becomes quoted on this forum and others as fact.

    See abstract and link at Dienekes Anthropological Blog or go direct to article at:

  • #2

    Assuming that, according to the traditional theory, both y-dna hg R1b and mtdna hg H were in Iberia during the LGM, how come that only the latter appears to have spread after the LGM to North Africa in sizeable number, whereas R1b is so extremely uncommon there?


    • #3
      My HVR1 African matches in RAO (H not tested for any subclades + 16519c):

      Algeria 3 (43) (also 2 Sephardic)
      Central African Republic 1 (95)
      the Democratic Republic of the Congo 1 (54)
      Ethiopia 2 (281)
      Ghana 1(15)
      (Libyan Arab Jamahiriya 5 (89) Sephardic)
      Morocco 5 (180) (also 18 Sephardic)
      (Tunisia 4 (47) Sephardic)
      Zimbabwe 1 (5)

      Before I also got the results of those in the various non H13 subclades, but now I only get those who have not been tested beyond H or are H13.


      • #4
        A good question

        The authors of the article just sort of tossed off the association with the enclave theory as sort of a protracted run on sentence as it were. I saw no attempt to provide proof for the inference other than the bald statement. For me, I am not sure I buy 1) the enclave theory in general, or 2) that R1b was a found within it. I thought the article was a marvelous example of beginning with a mindset on a theory and "finding" "supporting" evidence.

        The fact in evidence is that what appears to be a derivation of the type of H found in Iberia is found in North Africa with features that show the derived version of H in North Africa is, in some senses of the word, downstream. If one was not already convinced of the enclave theory and looking for evidence of it, your point about r1b certainly should have come to mind. So should have intermarriage and etc. during the nearly 1000 year stay of the Moors in Spain. And I am sure that is just the beginning inferences one could draw from the facts documented in the research.


        • #5
          H7 in north africa

          Any similar article on strange Mtdna H7 ?

          The current geographic distribution in H7 project is the following:
          I am the one from Algeria. Quite heterogeneous !

          Country Count
          Algeria 1
          Belarus 2
          Czech Republic 2
          Denmark 2
          England 1
          France 1
          Germany 6
          Hungary 1
          Ireland 4
          Italy 5
          Poland 3
          Romania 1
          Scotland 1
          Spain 1
          Ukraine 2
          United Kingdom 7
          Wales 1
          Unknown Origin 11


          • #6

            Maybe one of the folks on here who understands mtDNA can help us with this. I am T. I have done HVR1 and 2 and am pending FGS. T is the subject of a project now that may well reveal things we don't yet know, but FTDNA shows my RAO as spread fairly evenly between Mexico, Spain, Sicily, Germany, Syria, and the Bahamas. My family says last port of call before the Bahamas was England in the early 17th century. So, I don't know if your project includes, as mine does, a mix of folks who have done HVR1 only, both 1 and 2, and one who has already completed an FGS. I am not sure from what I can tell if I can read anything into this situation for both of us other than your H and my T are old and has a lot of miles on it. Would love for someone to tell me, Oh, No, JD, you have it all wrong. Look at this spot on the map. Home, ET.


            • #7
              I'm not a T-expert, but as far as I know, I think you're right, T (as H) is old and widely dispersed in Europe, so there's really no particular information in HVR1, especially if you don't have any peculiar mutation there. Perhaps FGS may reveal something more, but I don't think there are enough T FGS to do so yet. I haven't heard any particular scientific study on T using FGS.



              • #8
                T Project

                I am participating in a project, the T project, that has over 250 persons signed up for FGS. That is certainly not a huge sampling but it is a start. I am kind of hopeful that a new understanding will come out of it, at least for me and, hey, that's who this is all about, right?!

                I would love to see all 10,000 remains in the recently discovered Greek mass burial examined. Maybe something could come out of those numbers, although they would have to work fast and effectively with lots of grad students to be ahead of the process and still need luck as well as discipline. I would love to get a handle on how mini mass extinction events effects a local population today. I know. Tough challenge.