Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Otsi

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Otsi

    There is a report out today that scientists have concluded that Otsi (the fellow whose mummy has been studied since found in the Ice in the Alps) came from a lineage that has either died out or is so rare that it has not been found in modern man.

    Hard to tell much of anything from a pre-digested popular news article.

    However, this raises two questions for me. If there is a man who lived only 5,500 years ago whose mt DNA FGS has no modern matches, and for whose lineage the scientists do no mention even the possibility of a mutated form (IE, as in from JT to all its descendants today), just how old ARE the haplogroups we have identified for today? It is one thing to say a man died, another thing to say there is no evidence of his tribe in the modern world. If we are the survivors, then did we begin to branch far more recently than the tens of thousands of years we have been saying? And is it possible that mtDNA mutates more rapidly that we have thought?

  • #2
    Deirwha:

    I haven't seen this latter article, but I have seen the original paper. Otzi is mtdna K1*, so I assume what the article was saying is that his specific subgroup of K1 doesn't seem to exist anymore. However, K1 means he's well within a very frequent haplogroup in modern Europeans. Indeed, K is now very frequent in the valley where the mummy was found. (And of course there is still the possibility that because of the problems in ancient dna analysis, the K1a mutation or similar may have been overlooked).

    In prehistoric times, lineages certainly died out, because population was much smaller, especially because here we're talking about a sublineage, not a major lienage. For male lineages this could be even more extreme, but if you think, it is still true that a given surname vanishes. Looking at my genealogical records, it seems that my family name at one point was down to 1 person in the 18th century.

    cacio

    Comment


    • #3
      The advantage of reading the report as opposed to media

      Yep. That covers it. So it is a misleading line in a newspaper report. On the basis you describe most of our lineages hang by a thread from time-to-time. That is hardly newsworthy so maybe that is the source of the way the article reported the story. Thanks for the clarification.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Deirwha
        There is a report out today that scientists have concluded that Otsi (the fellow whose mummy has been studied since found in the Ice in the Alps) came from a lineage that has either died out or is so rare that it has not been found in modern man.
        Hi Deirwha,

        Probably most mtDNA exact sequences have died out over thousands of years. We have a great many FGS sequences in the K Project with no exact matches. Otzi was in subclade K1. We have two members of the K Project in K1. All three are different, but I don't see that as something very unusual.

        Otzi has two rare coding-region mutations which are found in no other known K. That is not that unusual. I see rare or unmatched coding-region mutations all the time. There are about 15,000 coding-region mutations, of which the average K might have two beyond those which define his subclade. Some people still think it's unusual that a person would have even one exact FGS match. They think, wrongly, that the chances are akin to two people flipping coins 16,000 times each and having the same results. mtDNA doesn't work that way. It's not just mtDNA. When the 67-marker Y-DNA test was introduced some "experts" predicted there would be no exact matches. I was one of the first to have such an exact match and now I have several.

        Don't forget that there are more of most types of DNA results in the FTDNA database than there are in the databases such as GenBank which are used by scientists. The Otzi paper Supplement lists all the 115 sequences used; 30 of them are from FTDNA customers/K Project members.

        Bill Hurst

        Comment


        • #5
          lots of lines seem to be dying out

          When it comes to American Caucasian lines, lots of their lines are dying out, do to nobody wants to raise kids anymore. My maternal line is dead end in my immediate family; and I don't know how many distant relatives with my mtDNA haplotype are continuing the line.

          U5b2 & R1a1

          Comment


          • #6
            ya never know

            I am S29/U198. One of the last places you would expect to find it is Cornwall, but there it was and my great grandfather had 11 sons and his father had 3 and his father 6 ... and on my mt DNA, who would have thunk a guy whose 14 closest matches are 2 Italians, a German, and 7 people from an island at the Western edge of the Atlantic with no one in between. To do a terrible thing to Jurassic Park, life will find a way.

            Comment


            • #7
              as for Americans...

              I hope some of my strategic distant relatives are Mormons. That way, the mtDNA haplotype might have a long term chance.

              U5b2

              Comment


              • #8
                apparantly

                sending them to Cornwall has the same impact. I wonder if it is something to do with the Atlantic conveyer belt.

                Comment


                • #9
                  link to Ice Man report

                  Here is a link to the above mentioned report (scroll down):

                  http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

                  Cheers!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
                    I hope some of my strategic distant relatives are Mormons. That way, the mtDNA haplotype might have a long term chance.

                    U5b2
                    trust me! my cousins and aunts .OH yes they got it handled ! and we don't have to be Mormons to do it!
                    we mostly have girls anyway
                    now keeping the few boys alive and in one piece into adulthood happens to be a big issue!
                    but having girl babies , who have girl babies around ... that is not an issue.. now it is slowing down lately! because we are mostly only have two or three kids now days . and no it is not like my great grandma and her sisters who had 5 to 7 kids , mostly girls, I got Loads of female cousins.. . but now days we are at least keeping pace with national averages or better.
                    matter of fact my daughter thinks she is having a girl this time.. we will see in a few more months when they do an ultrasound.
                    just what this world needs lots more amazon women..


                    , now my dads branch of his surname died with my generation, my dad had two girls and his half brother had 7 girls also, then . adopted a boy to "carry on the name" and he was gay, so that didn't work. so dads close branch of that surname is gone, Y dna branch is gone I think and it is kind of a rarer Y type compared to others . he is a, G an undefined subgroup.
                    and everyone with that surname around the world is a relation. and so yes thank goodness some of those males are Mormons! but my dads branch has died out. I think I Have to go back up three or four generations to a branch or two that are Mormons.

                    well if get my dads Y line and a close to My mtdna line which looks like may have happened in history around the Scythians
                    and on sardinia now days, they are both there too.. if they get together too much and they really can have a Amazon tribe.. nothing but girls born.
                    Last edited by purple flowers; 31 October 2008, 11:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Otzi

                      some good links

                      http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocat...tured/otzi.htm

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X