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Help With Subhaplogroup U Please!

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  • Help With Subhaplogroup U Please!

    Hello!I'm completely new to this community so please help me. I just received my mtDNA results from the Genographic Project and got this:
    Haplogroup U, Subgroup U*
    Mitochondrial HVR I Sequence
    16172C, 16183C, 16189C, 16234T, 16311C, 16519C

    I did some research on the subgroup U* and found little info. Is it really a subgroup or they did not yet determine the subgroup such as U1-U8?

    Thank you for your help? If anyone has some further instructions and useful links I'd appreciate it.

    Greetings from Croatia!

  • #2
    Hello Genghiskhan,

    the lineage you got is an example of very rare U8b1 haplogroup, which is considered as a "sister-clade" to very common in Europe hg K. There are 7 exact matches in the published literature:


    Poles, 1/600
    Russians, 1/1150
    Shugnans (a Pamirian ethnos) 1/44

    for these 4 samples there is a possibility to be in U6 instead of U8:

    Mozabites, 2/85
    Algerians, 2/85




    Valery
    Last edited by vraatyah; 30 April 2008, 07:57 AM.

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    • #3
      Dear vraatyah,

      you are so kind. I don't know howcome Genographic project didn't write U8b1 but just U*?

      Could you explain just a little bit these figures regarding Poles an so on?

      Thank you so much

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by genghiskhan
        Dear vraatyah,

        I don't know howcome Genographic project didn't write U8b1 but just U*?


        they don't check samples for being in U8

        Comment


        • #5
          Gengiskhan:

          you can check a tree of haplogroup U8 at ron scott's page:

          http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....ylogeny/U8.jpg

          http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...._U8b_UK_K2.jpg

          As you see, the tree is determined by coding region mutations, which, as vraatyah was saying, are not tested by ftdna/gen project.

          cacio

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          • #6
            So I'm definitely U8b1 according to mutations or?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by cacio
              ...
              As you see, the tree is determined by coding region mutations, which, as vraatyah was saying, are not tested by ftdna/gen project.
              ...
              The Genographic Project bases their determinations on HVR1 results only. As a refinement you can order an HVR2 test through FTDNA and/or a subclade test that samples the coding region for SNP's indicative of known subclades, or the FGS, full genomic sequence, that covers the entire coding area. Either the subclade or FGS would confirm Valery's literature search results, that you are U8b1 or U6. Needless to say, if you want and can afford the FGS, the HVR2 or subclade tests are redundant.
              Last edited by tomcat; 30 April 2008, 08:57 AM.

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              • #8
                you are likely to be in U8b1 according to your HVS1 mutations, indeed; however you would fall into U6 if you were, say, a N. African Arab/Berber or a Spaniard. Please, contact your testing company (is it FTDNA?) and ask for the coding region SNP test to check if you are uctually in U8. The test for U hg you already passed, so you need further checks now.
                Last edited by vraatyah; 30 April 2008, 09:01 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by tomcat
                  The Genographic Project bases their determinations on HVR1 results only
                  they also run some basical SNP tests for deep haplogroups, and unfortunately it appeared to be costly enough to check for hgs such as U8a, U8b, U7 etc which do not reach even 1% of the European pool.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear people, thank you so much!
                    I just needed to know that U* subgroup does not exist.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have a diagram which I really don't understand which has SNP label and mtDNA DIAGRAM. SNPs (if it's of any help to you) includes U11467 in ND2 region and K10550 in COI region.

                      ?

                      I see Vraatyah that you are from Russia. How typical is haplogroup U for Russia beacuse we Croatians are considered to be at least linguistically and culturally Slavic nation.

                      What regions is U8b1 typical for?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        These are mtdna coding region mutations. 11467 defines haplogroup U - so you have this mutation. 10550 defines K (a subhaplogroup of U); you are not K, so you don't have this mutation. This is probably what ftdna tested to determine you as U. If you peruse some of the link in the previous posts, you can see the location of these mutations in the mtdna tree.

                        cacio

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                        • #13
                          So Cacio,

                          according to HVS I sequence a subgroup can be approximately determined?
                          Sorry for bothering but I'm pretty much new to this.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by genghiskhan
                            I see Vraatyah that you are from Russia. How typical is haplogroup U for Russia beacuse we Croatians are considered to be at least linguistically and culturally Slavic nation.

                            What regions is U8b1 typical for?

                            Us are typical everywhere in Europe and reach the total frequency of 21% in Russia, however U8 (without K) is one of the rarest.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              gengiskhan:

                              yes, in most cases, the mutation determining the haplogroup is in the coding region, as you can see from the mtdna trees. The gen project/ftdna only test some of these locations, those corresponding to the most frequent haplogroups, like U or K (as you said), but not those for uncommon groups like U8.

                              However, what one can do is to compare one's own HVR1 with other people. If your HVR1 is the same or very similar to that of some other person, then you are probably both in the same haplogroup. That's what vraatyah was doing. He found that your HVR1 is the same as that of other observations in his dataset, and this people were known U8b (from testing the coding region), which allowed him to conclude that you are also U8b. In some cases, HVR1 is not enough, eg when a given HVR1 sequence appears in different haplogroups (or is a novel finding and there are no matches), but your HVR1 must be specific to U8 and not appear elsewhere.

                              As vraatyah was saying, U as a whole is very frequent everywhere in Europe. U8 is rare, but its immediate sister clade is K, which is very common in Europe (between 5 and 10%). I don't know much about Croatia, probably there are some papers around, but if I remember correctly, in general most countries in Europe have pretty much the same mtdna landscape.

                              cacio

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