U5a, Suebi origins?

[derinos]

Imescales

I lost track of the time element, regarding Celtiberian and Suebi migration to Spain. The Celtiberians must have migrated at a much earlier time, also probably from Germany. Celtic and Germanic are Indoeuropean languages. But the DNA of the Germans and Celts would hold much DNA from the pre-Indoeuropeans whom they absorbed when they took over Europe.

U5b2 & R1a1

Just musing; yours was not a mistake, just our modern terminology, as usual, implying meanings beyond the discipline! Ancient reportage names are implying cultural, religious, linguistic and DNA identity. Those RomanoGreek reporters have much to explain!

"German" was a non-specific Roman reporters' word for all people in the huge NE region outside the Roman Empire, (excluding such provinces as Gaul, Trakia and Dakia, which incidentally spoke Celtic dialects.) The term does not imply DNA identity. Timescale late preRoman.
"Celtic" is a linguistics-history word for the language believed to have been used by the mass of people that filled most of Southern Europe just before the Roman Empire. It does not imply DNA identity. Timescale , late pre-Roman.
"Indoeuropean" is a linguistics-history word for the root language that branched off as Celtic and Germanic. Without evidence of major population replacement, (as shown by Sykes' work,) the Indoeuropean languages, and Neolithic farming, flowed over Europe with only 20% replacement of the Paleolithic DNA identifiers. Timescale ca 10,000 ybp.

"Celtiberian" defeats my search for clear definition. There is some confusion between RomanoGreek reported inmigrations (timescale ca3000ybp), and ancient refugial presence and (DNA-supported) persistence from the LGM (Ca 20,000 ybp). These sturdy Paleolithic survivors may well have acquired Celtic variety IE as it came by, to be later G-R reported as "Celt-Iberians".
IMHO the late preRoman-era Suebii are defined purely by their cultural self-name "the free ones" as given in the RomanoGreek reports. From those reports, their DNA make-up, may well have been federal-tribal, with one or two core-tribal "founder" descriptors.

[PDHOTLEN]

my mistake re Suebi

I lost track of the time element, regarding Celtiberian and Suebi migration to Spain. The Celtiberians must have migrated at a much earlier time, also probably from Germany. Celtic and Germanic are Indoeuropean languages. But the DNA of the Germans and Celts would hold much DNA from the pre-Indoeuropeans whom they absorbed when they took over Europe.

U5b2 & R1a1

[purple flowers]

Oh yes that can't work because Sue-bi and Canaanani are not like 10000 years old... too bad that was starting to look kind of interesting

now this is really dangerous

http://www.members.cox.net/banksfamilies/Sarmatians.html

note the eurasian amazon women.... ever seen a flat head? they look kinda like lizards or the alien in alien vs preditor

[byakhee_2001]

This discussion is becoming whimsical

Suebi have nothing to do with Sioux.

They were germanic, not celtic.

And what are these quotations? From the Mormon Bible?

It's dangerous to mix religion, sciences and history.

We did it in the past with disastrous and bloody results.

I hope that these dark ages will not come back again.

[PDHOTLEN]

how my lines fit in

The thought occurred to me: Assuming Attila the Hun was R1a1 (Attila supposedly means Dad), and my maternal mitochondrial line going back to the upper Rhine (Suebi), both lines met in Wisconsin to produce myself. So why am I such a loser?

R1a1 & U5b2

[PDHOTLEN]

more about Suebi

I was just browsing a paperback that I have lying around titled "Empires of the Word", 2005. It's about the history of various language groups around the world, with much of it speculation.

Suebi is mentioned briefly. On 31 December of the year 406, there was a mass crossing on the frozen Rhine, by Suebi from the east side of the Rhine, along with Vandals from farther east, and Alans (an Iranian-speaking people) who had been driven westward by the Huns. So one can surmise the varied DNA involved. The whole mass of those peoples moved across France and into Spain, where they settled; but many of the Vandals moved across to North Africa, where they set up their state in Carthage.

That probably explains why I have some fairly close matches (mitochondrial control area) from Spain.

[purple flowers]

The mass migration of the Suebi from Germany to the Iberian peninsula in Roman times may have been of Celtic speakers, and the origin of Celtiberian.

Suebi - Swabia - Schwaben - Schwabenland.

Phil
was celtic or something pre-celtic a form of a semetic language ? or middle eastern type people or maybe like with egyption ties maybe ?
ALSO a kinda long shot ... but
if they were some kinds of semetic Sue ... might be what is called Sioux here and it is what the Ani shena abi /Ojiway/algonquin / shawnee etc called them like " little snake like" I think ...." The name Sioux comes from Nadowe Su, which is Algonquin meaning "Little Rattle." The story, as recorded, says the phrase comes from the rattling sound a snake makes before it bites. French traders and trappers changed the spelling from Su to Sioux and dropped Nadowe. This is how the great Oceti Sakowin became commonly known as Sioux."

so the SU means little or rattler or some other action done by snakes most likely .. their words are more about concepts usually , than names of things like english is .


if it were semetic could it be .... the "Su ebi"? were they into snakes or have anything to do with snakes or build snake mounds or have snake god's or anything like that or in any way be compared with snakes.... like they hide well or something maybe, it should be something in their legends.. just in case SUE means snake, slither, rattle or maybe just "little like "?

[PDHOTLEN]

impression of Suebi

The mass migration of the Suebi from Germany to the Iberian peninsula in Roman times may have been of Celtic speakers, and the origin of Celtiberian.

Suebi - Swabia - Schwaben - Schwabenland.

[purple flowers]

Oh yes that can't work because Sue-bi and Canaanani are not like 10000 years old... too bad that was starting to look kind of interesting

[purple flowers]

This study also found a significant amount of supposedly "Western" mtDNA in ancient remains in Central Asia. The groups found were H, HV, I, T, U (including U5 and U5a), and W (see the link above for a more detailed breakdown).[/QUOTE]

http://cherokeehistory.com/legendke.html

"When God created these people he gave them great, mysterious power to be used for the best interests of the people. They lived in large cities with tall buildings. Some wise men began to use their power different than was intended which troubled the people. God instructed them to take their white fire and move away from that place. Some went to Asia, some to India, and others to North America leaving the wise men behind. After they had gone to other countries, these large cities were destroyed when the ground sank and are now under the ocean. God turned to the people that came to America and gave them wisdom and guided them. "






and my best guess for now
is that rare napalm of the Greeks ancient legends is this "white fire" , yet the greek could not reproduce the " white fire " must have been what we call some kind of napalm .. of the pre america cherokee..
their clans called ani waya, ani( etc )..... probably the Canaan ani ( "ani" meaning "to be") thus some of the people traveled toward the east maybe from the med.. could the Suebi have been that group once? is their Q's or C's near the suebi?
so where in India or towards India/ near or from Greece or from the MED most likely .. was the U5's and Q's maybe C's maybe H, W, I and other Med dna? is there some in India? or now in Asia and this ancient central asian group they found was the towards "india" group?

[purple flowers]

well I know what you are saying , it is what they are saying but , I think too many scienists have their nose in a book for way to darn long.. or in other words "damn city folks...."
anyway I have used the ideas of female clans and male y lines to breed my animals with for ages now.. horses and 3 breeds of dogs two breds of goats and rabbits. I can switch the look of any breed of small dogs . or goat breeds or rabbits breeds completely in three generations.
if you know what the males true Y line is and bred that to each female clan line.... abt 75 % of the time you will get the true type of the male Y line in all of the pups . and abt 25 % you will reveal the females truer X lines. once you see three generations with three different male Y's you can tell what everything is.
once you know then they breed true to their a range of type with that line norms, once you know their true line, and what the line is you bred it with is .. generation after generation it is all predictable. what you see it is all about the linear lines.
.. it is not commulative. because I can completely switch breeds with any female line in 3 generations! you will not know that other breed exsisted in their background. but you will still see the females truest issues in 25 % of the pups ... so say squaty and wide and long nosed and bug eyed, pidgeon toes ( oh that is an ugly dog) .. will always be there in at least 25% of the pups.. and 75 % will look more like like the dads line and his moms Mtdna lines on his female pups... but no hint of the previuos breed. so I say they are wrong! there is alot more to the linear lines/clans than they seem to understand. .

[derinos]

MtDNA is only a sticker, not the main label.

Purple Flowers speaking of MtDNA lines, writes:
" areas with only one female or two female lines .... not healthy societies ."

Comment: That is fundamentally true, but would not be not indicated by their MtDNA lines. Rather, instead, if their (otherwise unstated) autosomal lines are few and become inbred.

In these discussions we sometimes forget that the MtDNA identifier is not part of the human genome, but of the genome of an ancient symbiotic bacterium living, in the cell but right outside the nuclear DNA.
It is only the latter which carries the heredity of the body shape and physiology of the person.
So the MtDNA clans of a given tribe may seem few, but do not reveal all the other nuclear autosomal diversities to which the Y, and if testable, X gender-based identifiers and their haplogroups, would give labelling clues.

[purple flowers]

the only conclusion is they just do not have it figured out yet...

I guess I need to clarify my thought here.
what I was trying to say is that peoples migrations moved in huge groups and lots of dna groups .. yes drift happened that is a slow expansion of any one line .. but migrations they move in huge groups of dna lines . like what waas posted with HV H, I , U U5....... etc ( probably the H was one clan and all U were still one also )
also when they are someplace they may have picked up what once could have been an eastern female lines but are seen today as western lines because they are in larger groups in the west because the enviorment and minerals available in the soil and water "fit" the line better.
it is that people move in large groups of dna lines. these tribes and such are based on clans. and I think they knew not to mate your own clan.
thus it is up to us to try to understand the groups compostions and thus their needs when in any area.

[J Man]

J Man:

I think you are right that mtdna is much less precise. One reason is simply that it doesn't allow as high a resolution as the Y chromosome. There is one HVR1 mutation every 20,000 years or so - and one coding region mutation every 3-5,000 years, so matches can go way back in the past.

But the main reason could be what you say - female lineages survive more easily than males. Males were subject to lots of risks (war etc.), so for males it's more like a winner takes all. Female lineages are both more ancient and more numerous.

You say that women travel less - but I think the opposite is true. Male lineages tend to remain more concentrated, which is also why they are more useful in defining geographic origin. Women actually move more, not in the sense of migration, but of marrying out. This may mean just going to the neighboring village, but slowly, over time, one lineage can cover great distances. So boundaries defined by mtdna are always fuzzy.

cacio

Yes actually when I think about it you are correct Cacio in saying that in many cases men tend to stay at home and women move into their homes. When it comes to large scale migrations especially the ones involving wars or pillaging I think men then moved around much more.

[purple flowers]

You might be interested in this article about the U5a remains found in China that belonged to Yu Hong. He was Sogdian, and they were an Iranian-speaking people. Of course, Indo-Iranian is a sub-family of the Indo-European language family.

This study also found a significant amount of supposedly "Western" mtDNA in ancient remains in Central Asia. The groups found were H, HV, I, T, U (including U5 and U5a), and W (see the link above for a more detailed breakdown).

well I think you brought up something else I use as proof they do not know everything about who was what yet . because these different groups of females is more normal. areas with only one female or two female lines is not healthy societies .
most of the NA eastern tribes had clans based on female clans. distinct female lines.
when they did a study on Cherokee they only find 3 of the 5 possible in current populations that science TOLD THEM are " native American".. one of the Oriental lines like B or A I think was completely missing.
so just three of the clans are accounted for in that tribe .
so where are the other at a minimum least 4 more?
Before the death from small pox and the other disease when whites got here they lost complete clans . it is said they had up to 9- 12 distinct female clans at one time, no one can remember how many but 11 is what most think.
and now they want us to buy there was only three. because there is no proof native X was in eastern sea tribes until very very late . even after contact late. because it is not in Island NA slave populations that came from the , those Indian came from the Tuscarora wars , which is supposed to be at heart of where native X is supposed to have been located.. obviously not .. it is not there.
one of the oriental ones is missing from some eastern tribes which means it also is way later coming oriental type line . so where at the minimum is the other at least 3 or 4 and up to 7-8 more distinct female clans lines not being called native American by " science" ?
the only conclusion is they just do not have it figured out yet...