U5a, Suebi origins?

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

How did you get your data?

African populations are shown to experience low levels of mitochondrial DNA gene flow, but high levels of Y chromosome gene flow. In particular, Y chromosome gene flow appears to be asymmetric, i.e., from the Bantu-speaking population into other African populations.
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/177/4/2195

I don't agree with you. Women moved in the past with the men, like the germanic tribes during Antiquity.

For example, of 30'000 Suebi who migrated to Spain/Portugal, only a maximum of 10'000 were men and the other were children and women.

[byakhee_2001]

I don't know if this is just me but it seems like mtDNA is not as good as Y-DNA when it comes to connecting haplotypes or haplogroups to certain historical groups. mtDNA seems to be more ancient in most places which seems to imply that the women did not move around as much as the men throughout the ages.

I don't agree with you. Women moved in the past with the men, like the germanic tribes during Antiquity.

For example, of 30'000 Suebi who migrated to Spain/Portugal, only a maximum of 10'000 were men and the other were children and women.

[PDHOTLEN]

German mito project

Most of the U5's in the German Mito Project are U5a:

http://www.familytreedna.com/surname_det.aspx?group=Germany-mtDNA&projecttype=MG

Although I thought I traced my U5b2 back to a German colonial woman in Pennsylvania, I can't find any other U5b2 claiming German descent.

U5b2 & R1a1

[vraatyah]

it seems to be so: first of all, the mitochondrial molecule is too small so there is no enough "room" for many markers there (as we need to get the best resolution), while Y seems to have infinite "capacity" compared to mtdna although it is still unexplored. The second reason is that european mtdna is almost the same throughout the continent and more than 90% of the tested folk is from Europe/USA, isn't it?

[cacio]

J Man:

I think you are right that mtdna is much less precise. One reason is simply that it doesn't allow as high a resolution as the Y chromosome. There is one HVR1 mutation every 20,000 years or so - and one coding region mutation every 3-5,000 years, so matches can go way back in the past.

But the main reason could be what you say - female lineages survive more easily than males. Males were subject to lots of risks (war etc.), so for males it's more like a winner takes all. Female lineages are both more ancient and more numerous.

You say that women travel less - but I think the opposite is true. Male lineages tend to remain more concentrated, which is also why they are more useful in defining geographic origin. Women actually move more, not in the sense of migration, but of marrying out. This may mean just going to the neighboring village, but slowly, over time, one lineage can cover great distances. So boundaries defined by mtdna are always fuzzy.

cacio

[J Man]

I don't know if this is just me but it seems like mtDNA is not as good as Y-DNA when it comes to connecting haplotypes or haplogroups to certain historical groups. mtDNA seems to be more ancient in most places which seems to imply that the women did not move around as much as the men throughout the ages.

[byakhee_2001]

U5 originated in Europe. Then there were migrations of U5 in other parts of the world as we see in these articles.

Yes U5 is very ancient.

But it seems that people forgive recent migrations like Suebi or other tribes.

Actually, we can't be sure if we come from recent or ancient migrations. But I hope that someday we will know.

[derinos]

Yes, you are right.

But one thing could be done. Test the individuals who can attest very ancient female ancestors, like before 1800.

So we could perhaps follow the migration of different Suebi and other tribes. And DNA/mtDNA could give some indications and proofs.

The problem actually is recent migrations, even internally in the same country. So it is difficult to follow ancient ones.

Myself I can attest that my female ancestors are from Galicia (Spain), near the frontier of North of Portugal.

As they were only about 30'000 Suebi inside a total population of 700'000, I am sure that I have a Suebii female ancestor. Very few people have U5 in Galicia and North of Portugal. About between 1,5% and 4%. More or less like the original 4,3% of Suebii (30000/700000). Suebi were more installed in north of Portugal than in Galicia. And we have more U5 in Portugal than in Galicia. It corresponds to the migration of Suebi. Their capital was Braga, in Portugal.

Byakhee, you are into a most interesting puzzle, albeit the "recent" story of a very long MtDNA timeline. We have a very ancient marker (ca 50,000 ybp), and the 2000+ ybp, relatively "modern" communal self-name Suebii, Latinized from an older tongue, given us by Tacitus. The name is not territorial but cultural, conflating a shared political stance common to similar but independently named tribes. They covered a very large land area, lightly populated enough to allow much wandering. A nice, free, arrangement, demographically resembling pre-Columbian North America, and sadly soon to be liberated by Rome.(Liber means book; so the word means the opposite of "free", to be listed in the Book of State!)
Galicia is a name cognate with "Land of the Celts", reported also in Poland and in the Near East as Galatia. (Gallici, from Gallatoi, from Keltoi). So we are into the naming problem of the folk of the past 3 millennia, where the Romans, who were the main historians, asking questions and receiving answers of varying degrees of convergent or diffusive application. "Suebii" appears to be an expansive self-name for tribes who were free, in contrast to the peoples of the Roman Empire. I can imagine Roman official explorers asking some local leader "What people are you?" And getting the answer "The free people", perhaps a word like
"Sha-wab, ("King of ourselves" in Indo-European.").
Reminiscent of the State of New Hampshire motto ?
That Ursula must have been a very fine woman, for she and her daughters to be so much appreciated as to have been taken along with the men in all their many wanderings!
Good luck in further developing your research idea.

[Stevo]

You might be interested in this article about the U5a remains found in China that belonged to Yu Hong. He was Sogdian, and they were an Iranian-speaking people. Of course, Indo-Iranian is a sub-family of the Indo-European language family.

This study also found a significant amount of supposedly "Western" mtDNA in ancient remains in Central Asia. The groups found were H, HV, I, T, U (including U5 and U5a), and W (see the link above for a more detailed breakdown).

[purple flowers]

It is simple: U5 and subclades originated in Europe.

The only thing we could do is to see the percentage of U5 in South-America. But I am sure that something exists already.

"simple".. .. I think the jury is out on that one.. maybe some of the U5's

HUM the paper said

"Where are Ursula descendants found TODAY"
but it wasn't all of the Ursula descendants of today! it showed Europe and Africa ... but not here and not south America and not the Caribbean... so it is not all of the tested Ursula of TODAY. that in and of itself makes it NOT factual. it is thus misleading . so what is the real statistics? because this one is not presenting what it claims to be presenting .

[byakhee_2001]

Yes, you are right.

But one thing could be done. Test the individuals who can attest very ancient female ancestors, like before 1800.

So we could perhaps follow the migration of different Suebi and other tribes. And DNA/mtDNA could give some indications and proofs.

The problem actually is recent migrations, even internally in the same country. So it is difficult to follow ancient ones.

Myself I can attest that my female ancestors are from Galicia (Spain), near the frontier of North of Portugal.

As they were only about 30'000 Suebi inside a total population of 700'000, I am sure that I have a Suebii female ancestor. Very few people have U5 in Galicia and North of Portugal. About between 1,5% and 4%. More or less like the original 4,3% of Suebii (30000/700000). Suebi were more installed in north of Portugal than in Galicia. And we have more U5 in Portugal than in Galicia. It corresponds to the migration of Suebi. Their capital was Braga, in Portugal.

Discussing the Suebii, a word persisting in modern German as "Schwabenland".

Words words! They create a virtual reality in the mind, magnets to which sentiments become attached. They present personal illusions of clear meaning, where reality can offer only a seductive vagueness.

"Evidently the name is multi-ethnic and cross-cultural," .....

That
is the operative concept in discussing the Suebii, quoted from Wikipedia's definitions of the term. The meaning of the name equates with "darfst-teller" in modern German,, or "the independent ones, the free ones" in their own language as stated by Roman writers.

The ancient definition quoted from Rome is hard to disentangle from the slightly earlier definition by the Greeks, of the Celts .
Perhaps the difference is only in the point in the timeline where the definition originates. Go back from 100 BC to 1000 BC and "Celts" walk out of almost the same definition from the two sources.

Now we have DNA criteria, it is difficult to identify a Schwabian modal format, due to multitribal and multilocational factors and diffusion with time. To truly claim Suebian identity one would have to be alive 3000 years ago; and wearing one's hair in a knot.

[byakhee_2001]

another one.... how could we guess yet more studies where there is no U5B2's , why do they ignore it? or was there only just the 7 in all of the world.....( am I that special in all my fragile-X-ness) there has to be more than that in South America and the Caribbean why is the U*******'s from South America not being listed or put in any studies too?

It is simple: U5 and subclades originated in Europe.

The only thing we could do is to see the percentage of U5 in South-America. But I am sure that something exists already.

[derinos]

Suebii? Real or imaginary?

Discussing the Suebii, a word persisting in modern German as "Schwabenland".

Words words! They create a virtual reality in the mind, magnets to which sentiments become attached. They present personal illusions of clear meaning, where reality can offer only a seductive vagueness.

"Evidently the name is multi-ethnic and cross-cultural," .....

That
is the operative concept in discussing the Suebii, quoted from Wikipedia's definitions of the term. The meaning of the name equates with "darfst-teller" in modern German,, or "the independent ones, the free ones" in their own language as stated by Roman writers.

The ancient definition quoted from Rome is hard to disentangle from the slightly earlier definition by the Greeks, of the Celts .
Perhaps the difference is only in the point in the timeline where the definition originates. Go back from 100 BC to 1000 BC and "Celts" walk out of almost the same definition from the two sources.

Now we have DNA criteria, it is difficult to identify a Schwabian modal format, due to multitribal and multilocational factors and diffusion with time. To truly claim Suebian identity one would have to be alive 3000 years ago; and wearing one's hair in a knot.

[purple flowers]

another one.... how could we guess yet more studies where there is no U5B2's , why do they ignore it? or was there only just the 7 in all of the world.....( am I that special in all my fragile-X-ness) there has to be more than that in South America and the Caribbean why is the U*******'s from South America not being listed or put in any studies too?

[byakhee_2001]

U5b?

Read this link:

http://www.brian-hamman.com/WhereAreUrsulaDescendentsFoundToday.htm

Suebi would be rather U5b.

3,4% in South Germany, 2,7% in North of Portugal, 1,5% in Galicia.

It corresponds to movement of Suebi.