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The Yueh-chih or "White Huns" and R1b1c

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  • The Yueh-chih or "White Huns" and R1b1c

    A brief article on a recent Russian genetic study entitled, Genetic Landscape of the Central Asia and Volga-Ural Region, by Khusnutdinova, et al, appears in the book, Biosphere Origin and Evolution:

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/hvk02w6165g0q740/

    The study found high rates of R1b1c among some Central Asian and Volga-Ural peoples, as follows:

    the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural >82%
    the Kyrgyz >50%
    the Tajiks >50%
    the Altai >50%


    It seems likely these folks belong to the ht35 "Eastern" variety of R1b1c, but they are M269+, after all, and those high frequencies occur within a total population of around 32+ million (over three times as large as the Basque population).

    Ancient Chinese documents like Shih-chi (c. 123 BC) mention that the Hsiung-nu (believed to have been the Huns) defeated another nomadic group, the Yueh-chih, in battle and forced them out of western China. The Yueh-chih settled in the area of what are now Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and thereabouts. The Yueh-chih are believed to have been the Tocharians, who spoke Tocharian, a centum Indo-European language.

    The Yueh-chih were sometimes called the "White Huns," presumably because they were Europoid in appearance, or Epthalites (also spelled Ephthalites). Some ancient Chinese documents mention a people living in NW China who had long, blond hair and white skin. Some scholars believe these Yueh-chih were the ancestors of many of the Avars (which could account for the apparent distribution of ht35 R1b1c in the region of the old Avar Khaganate in SE Europe).

    Doesn't it seem significant that the apparent descendants of a centum Indo-European-speaking people, the Yueh-chih or Tocharians, are mostly R1b1c?

    The nearby Uyghurs of NW China also have a fairly high rate of R1b (I don't know how much of it is R1b1c; some of it is R1b1b).

    There in East Central Asia we have the 32+ million descendants of a distinctly Europoid, IE-speaking population, and they are predominantly R1b1c, at frequencies that exceed those of some W. European countries.

    That seems like it should mean something, somehow.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Stevo
    the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural >82%
    the Kyrgyz >50%
    the Tajiks >50%
    the Altai >50%
    .
    Finally the conclusive evidence confirming what "I have suspected" have arrived, you R1b guys are all mongols!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Noaide
      Finally the conclusive evidence confirming what "I have suspected" have arrived, you R1b guys are all mongols!
      And proud of it!

      Comment


      • #4
        some part of altai people might be from mongol stock, most of them are turkic people.
        tajiks are iranian speaking people, bashkir and kyrgyz have turkic origin.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by yerlan
          some part of altai people might be from mongol stock, most of them are turkic people.
          tajiks are iranian speaking people, bashkir and kyrgyz have turkic origin.
          However, in the past more Altai people must have been Mongol stock. Most Koreans are believed to have been part of this Altai peoples and came from there. Perhaps part of the reason why Mongol stock Altai people are fewer there now.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Stevo
            A brief article on a recent Russian genetic study entitled, Genetic Landscape of the Central Asia and Volga-Ural Region, by Khusnutdinova, et al, appears in the book, Biosphere Origin and Evolution:

            http://www.springerlink.com/content/hvk02w6165g0q740/

            The study found high rates of R1b1c among some Central Asian and Volga-Ural peoples, as follows:

            the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural >82%
            the Kyrgyz >50%
            the Tajiks >50%
            the Altai >50%


            It seems likely these folks belong to the ht35 "Eastern" variety of R1b1c, but they are M269+, after all, and those high frequencies occur within a total population of around 32+ million (over three times as large as the Basque population).

            Ancient Chinese documents like Shih-chi (c. 123 BC) mention that the Hsiung-nu (believed to have been the Huns) defeated another nomadic group, the Yueh-chih, in battle and forced them out of western China. The Yueh-chih settled in the area of what are now Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and thereabouts. The Yueh-chih are believed to have been the Tocharians, who spoke Tocharian, a centum Indo-European language.

            The Yueh-chih were sometimes called the "White Huns," presumably because they were Europoid in appearance, or Epthalites (also spelled Ephthalites). Some ancient Chinese documents mention a people living in NW China who had long, blond hair and white skin. Some scholars believe these Yueh-chih were the ancestors of many of the Avars (which could account for the apparent distribution of ht35 R1b1c in the region of the old Avar Khaganate in SE Europe).

            Doesn't it seem significant that the apparent descendants of a centum Indo-European-speaking people, the Yueh-chih or Tocharians, are mostly R1b1c?

            The nearby Uyghurs of NW China also have a fairly high rate of R1b (I don't know how much of it is R1b1c; some of it is R1b1b).

            There in East Central Asia we have the 32+ million descendants of a distinctly Europoid, IE-speaking population, and they are predominantly R1b1c, at frequencies that exceed those of some W. European countries.

            That seems like it should mean something, somehow.

            That is interesting. And that's just the Ydna. I wonder what their results would be if they had additional tests done thru AncestryByDna and DNA Tribes. Mtdna tests would be nice too.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think that this supports the notion that R1b remained in Siberia a lot longer than was earlier reported & presumably entered Europe after the last Ice Age, in conjunction with the spread of Indo-European languages. The M269+ mutation probably occurred in Central Asia & these modern populations in Central Asia are simply comprised of those who didn't move West.

              Timothy Peterman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hando
                However, in the past more Altai people must have been Mongol stock. Most Koreans are believed to have been part of this Altai peoples and came from there. Perhaps part of the reason why Mongol stock Altai people are fewer there now.
                Well, as far as I understand scythians were replaced by Hunny, as Huns defeated Yuezhi (tocharians?) and Wusun.
                The majority of scholars claim that Huns were turkic speaking people.
                Thus, mongolian stock was more recent wave in Altai in comparison with turkic people. Most of mongols belong to Haplo C and O. The majority of Altai people, including Kyrgyz who pushed out south from Altai, belongs to R1.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by yerlan
                  Well, as far as I understand scythians were replaced by Hunny, as Huns defeated Yuezhi (tocharians?) and Wusun.
                  The majority of scholars claim that Huns were turkic speaking people.
                  Thus, mongolian stock was more recent wave in Altai in comparison with turkic people. Most of mongols belong to Haplo C and O. The majority of Altai people, including Kyrgyz who pushed out south from Altai, belongs to R1.
                  Koreans are O2, and said to be from Altai. Their language also originates from the same Altaic branch as Turkic.
                  1)So, how do you explain this if they are only a recent "arrival"?

                  2)When you say Mongolian stock was a more recent arrival to the Altai, what dates are you talking about? I ask this since Koreans left the Altai at least 2000 years ago.

                  3) Although huns are believed to be comprised of Turkic dna, they also had O2, not just Turkic. So the Huns had both mongolian as well as turkic elements. In lieu of this are you suggesting that huns with the O2 are a recent arrival to the Altai, as opposed to the R1 huns?
                  Last edited by Hando; 9th January 2008, 09:03 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hando
                    Koreans are O2, and said to be from Altai. Their language also originates from the same Altaic branch as Turkic.
                    1)So, how do you explain this if they are only a recent "arrival"?

                    2)When you say Mongolian stock was a more recent arrival to the Altai, what dates are you talking about? I ask this since Koreans left the Altai at least 2000 years ago.

                    3) Although huns are believed to be comprised of Turkic dna, they also had O2, not just Turkic. So the Huns had both mongolian as well as turkic elements. In lieu of this are you suggesting that huns with the O2 are a recent arrival to the Altai, as opposed to the R1 huns?
                    Hando,
                    1. I know little about Koreans. Altaic language is not necessarily mongolic, it is also turkic. As far as I know turkic, mongol, korean and japanese are relative languagese, as we have the same grammatical structure of sentences in contrast to the rest of the world. Eastern Huns were under the big influence from mongols (shiwei?). However, the region to the west, closer to Altai, predominantly occupied by turkic tribes.
                    2. If you would read the paper about Egyin Gol necropolis (~2000 years back, north of Mongolia, Keyser-Tracqui et al 2003, see also here: http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/art.../ancient.shtml), then you can find that those samples belong to turcis tribes and to some western Haplos, such as R1a. So, this may indicate that mongols appeared in Altai later than 2000 years ago.
                    I am guessing that Turkic tribes might be an indigenous people of Altai, then we may see the appearance of indo-european Scythians, then Huns stroked back and pushed out Scythians from the region, and next wave were Mongols. Where the place of Koreans here? I don't know, but would be happy to learn.
                    3. I haven’t seen the data suggesting that Huns are Haplo O.
                    I believe that the majority of Huns (Xiongnu) was C3. The Scythians (yuezhi and etc) could be R1a. The Chinese paper on ancient DNA (Li et al 2007) suggested that O2 was present about 2,500 years back in South of China (Wucheng culture). O2 was not found on coastal area of China, not on the North and Chinese Tibet. This is referring to O2 subject and not related to Koreans, as the majority of Koreans might be O3. Haplo O3 was found in Chinese Tibet and starting from 6000 years ago (Daxi culture), O3 was not present in ancient DNA of South and coastal China.
                    Last edited by yerlan; 10th January 2008, 11:54 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by yerlan
                      Hando,
                      The Chinese paper on ancient DNA (Li et al 2007) suggested that O2 was present about 2,500 years back in South of China (Wucheng culture). O2 was not found on coastal area of China, not on the North and Chinese Tibet. This is referring to O2 subject and not related to Koreans, as the majority of Koreans might be O3. Haplo O3 was found in Chinese Tibet and starting from 6000 years ago (Daxi culture), O3 was not present in ancient DNA of South and coastal China.
                      Yerlan, that is very interesting for me as I am Korean and I tested O2 Haplo for my Y DNA. So just to confirm, are you saying that the Chinese paper on ancient DNA (Li et al 2007) suggested that O2 was from South China 2500 years ago?
                      This would be a recent arrival of my 02 ancestor from South China, only 2500 years or so to the Korean peninsular, instead of the Altai. If this paper is correct...
                      All my best.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hando
                        Yerlan, that is very interesting for me as I am Korean and I tested O2 Haplo for my Y DNA. So just to confirm, are you saying that the Chinese paper on ancient DNA (Li et al 2007) suggested that O2 was from South China 2500 years ago?
                        This would be a recent arrival of my 02 ancestor from South China, only 2500 years or so to the Korean peninsular, instead of the Altai. If this paper is correct...
                        All my best.
                        Hando,
                        I think this is just a possibility. Understandably, the representaion of each side was not outstanding. We need more works on ancient DNA. Also, O2, as all O sub-branches is very diverse. According to publications ,the general direction of O was from west to east. So, potentially we can find ancient O2 on the west and north of China, among turks, mongols, and north-west Chinese tribes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stevo
                          A brief article on a recent Russian genetic study entitled, Genetic Landscape of the Central Asia and Volga-Ural Region, by Khusnutdinova, et al, appears in the book, Biosphere Origin and Evolution:

                          http://www.springerlink.com/content/hvk02w6165g0q740/

                          The study found high rates of R1b1c among some Central Asian and Volga-Ural peoples, as follows:

                          the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural >82%
                          the Kyrgyz >50%
                          the Tajiks >50%
                          the Altai >50%


                          It seems likely these folks belong to the ht35 "Eastern" variety of R1b1c, but they are M269+, after all, and those high frequencies occur within a total population of around 32+ million (over three times as large as the Basque population).
                          Looks like somebody made a BIG mistake here to me. "Genetic Landscape of the Central Asia and Volga–Ural Region" says:

                          In this regard decreasing frequency cline of haplogroup R1b3 from western Europe towards eastern Europe and unexpectedly high frequency of this lineage in the eastern most fringe, i.e. southern Urals (>82%) and in Central Asian highlands among Tajiks, Kyrgyz and Altai (>50%) (Kivisild et al., 2003) imply that R1b3 Y-chromosomes in these two eastern regions cannot be associated with the west east population expansion from Europe.
                          The only Kivislid reference is : Kivisild, T., Rootsi, S., Metspalu, M., Mastana, S., Kaldma, K., Parik, J., Metspalu, E., Adojaan, M., Tolk, H.-V., Stepanov, V., Golge, M., Usanga, E., Papiha, S.S., Cinnioglu, C., King, R., Cavalli-Sforza, L., Underhill, P.A. and Villems, R. (2003) The genetic heritage of earliest settlers persist in both the Indian tribal and caste populations. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 72, 313–332.

                          This article says:

                          Interestingly, the high frequency of the M17 mutation seems to be concentrated around the elevated terrain of central and western Asia. In central Asia, its frequency is highest (>50%) in the highlands among Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Altais and drops down to <10% in the plains among the Turkmenians and Kazakhs (Wells et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2002).



                          (Zerjal T, Wells R, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C (2002) A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Ychromosomal insights into central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466–482,

                          Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Underhill PA, Evseeva I, Blue-Smith J, Jin L, et al (2001) The Eurasian heartland: a continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 98:10244–10249)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
                            Looks like somebody made a BIG mistake here to me.
                            Maybe, but it doesn't seem likely, since there was another recent study that preceded the Khusnutdinova study, and it found R1b1c in certain populations of the Volga-Ural Bashkirs at about 75 - 77% (not far off Khusnutdinova's results).

                            Khusnutdinova's samples sizes were also quite large and included 318 Bashkirs.

                            Even this Spencer Wells study,
                            The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on y-chromosome diversity, with its somewhat small sample sizes, found a number of relatively large R1b1c populations in Central Asia..

                            However, as I said, the sample sizes are rather woefully small, and they didn't test for M269 (just M173xM17 and M17). According to that paper, 32% of the Yagnobi of Tajikistan; 21% of the Uzbeks of Kashkadarva; 29% of the Kurds; 37% of the Turkmen; 36% of the Armenians; 14% of the Azeri and 17% of the Lezgi of Azerbaijan; and 12% of the Ossetians (who were seriously under sampled) were M173.

                            On the other hand, Khusnutdinova et al's sample sizes for Genetic Landscape of the Central Asia and Volga-Ural Region were generally much larger:

                            Volga-Ural Bashkirs - 258

                            Gaininsk Bashkirs - 60


                            Tatars - 228

                            Chuvashis - 55

                            Komi-Permyaks - 74

                            Komi-Zyryans - 62

                            Mari - 136

                            Mordvinians - 102

                            Udmurts - 101

                            Uzbeks - 103

                            Kazahks - 331

                            Uygurs - 121

                            Unfortunately, I do not have access to the full report, just an article that describes some aspects of it and that appears in the book, Biosphere Origin and Evolution. Kyrgyz, Altai and Tajiks were also tested, but the article does not list the sample sizes, so we await publication of the full study to find out.

                            Still the sample sizes for most of the groups listed in the article are significantly larger than those from Eurasian Heartland and for that second study, Y chromosomal Insights into Central Asia.

                            Both of those studies in which Wells was involved had some pretty limited sample sizes.

                            Another thing to consider is that Khusnutdinova is a geneticist at a university in Bashkortostan (home of the Bashkirs) in the midst of the Volga-Ural region of Russia.
                            Last edited by Stevo; 14th January 2008, 02:16 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rainbow
                              That is interesting. And that's just the Ydna. I wonder what their results would be if they had additional tests done thru AncestryByDna and DNA Tribes. Mtdna tests would be nice too.
                              Here is a study that found a high frequency of Western mtDNA among ancient remains in Central Asia.

                              The Western mtDNA haplogroups found were H, HV, I, T, U and W (see the link above for a more detailed breakdown).

                              Comment

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