origin of R 1 b

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

Gene Tree Frequency Distributions

Well, after all of this and that, this is how it looked to me:

Part I: R-M207
Appears as if the primary migration node intersection (x-E. Yemen, y-S. Scotland)
Route A towards India
Route B towards Germany and Atlantic Costal Region
mild communication to Central Asia even less westward and southern
mild communication North Central Africa domain slightly towards Central Western Bantu

Part II: R1a1-M17
Heavy migration to southeast of Aral Sea towards Northwestern Kashmir area
Mild communication with R-M207 home
Mild communication with R-M269 migration to central Europe

Part III: R1b1b2-M269
Primary migration to the Atlantic Coast region
mild communcation to Middle Eastern Asia and Aral Sea region

Part IV: R1b1b2a1-M405/U106/S21
European, Expanded Atlantic Coastal Region especially Belgium, the Netherlands and coastally Northwest of the Benrath line

[Stevo]

But where was the home land of the Haplgroup R 1b? Southwest-Europe
or the Ukraine? And when did the haplogroup arise? About 8000 BC or
30.000 BC?

There is a lot of debate on those topics. Dr. Ken Nordtvedt, Vince Vizachero, and others have estimated that R-M269 is relatively young, somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,000-8,000 years old.

The recent Karafet et al paper (2008) estimated the age of R1 (M173) at 18,500 years, and R1b1b2 cannot be older than its own ancestor R1. Of course, the confidence interval on that R1 age estimate extends to 25,000 years, but that is the upper limit.

R1b1b2 diversity increases as one moves east across Europe and into Asia. It seems that it may be highest in Anatolia (modern Turkey) and Armenia, so R1b1b2 may have first arisen in that vicinity.

But we have a lot to learn and aren't even close to having all the answers.

[Haganus]

But where was the home land of the Haplgroup R 1b? Southwest-Europe
or the Ukraine? And when did the haplogroup arise? About 8000 BC or
30.000 BC?

[Stevo]

Until data comes out that is based on confirmed SNPs, I wouldn't pay too much attention to this type of an analysis.

Timothy Peterman

I agree. My OGAP group (I forget which it is) is pretty much what Oppenheimer called His "FMH" (Frisian Modal Haplotype). Most of the guys in it are R-U106* and I am R-P312* (aka R-S116*).

[T E Peterman]

Until data comes out that is based on confirmed SNPs, I wouldn't pay too much attention to this type of an analysis.

Timothy Peterman

[jan]

I just read Geographic Patterns of Haplogroup R1b in the British Isles, By Kevin D. Campbell, http://www.jogg.info/31/campbell.pdf

Haplotype(???) OGAP17, shown in Figure 4 on page 8, is a match to my father. Virtually every other type has some interesting history associated with it, or at least several lines of text. For ours, it says "OGAP 17... show[s] a clear affinity for Northern England."

A single sentence??? Come on, now!!!

[PDHOTLEN]

I don't know much...

I was trying to extrapolate from what little ISOGG has at the bottom of their "R" page. But I'm glad that my clumsiness got some clarifications from some of you more knowledgeable scholars.

The Caspian Sea overflowed its banks when the huge ice sheets melted in the north. There was a rather vast shallow sea connecting the Aral Sea and the Black Sea with the swollen Caspian Sea.. This would have created a barrier to peoples to the north and south of that water. Depending on how long that situation lasted, it might have had an isolating effect on DNA. Anyway, that's what I get out of it.

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

That is a good reason . . . Maybe, they were attempting to get away from the other people in in the south. I would think as they found new hunting grounds. Some returned home now and then . . .

http://www.alpineascents.com/why-climb-everest.asp



Was there a better reason to go to the moon? I don't think so. Curiousity killed the cat, but it has also killed some mountaineers and astronauts.

[Eki]

When people first tried to climb these mountains it must have been for some reasons.

http://www.alpineascents.com/why-climb-everest.asp

When George Mallory responded "Because it is there" to the 'Why climb Everest question', he passed on a sort of permanent approval to those who wished to risk their lives climbing. But one should really have asked Mallory and his predecessors, "How did you know it was there?" Possibly "Why climb Everest?" is best answered, "because we found it."

Was there a better reason to go to the moon? I don't think so. Curiousity killed the cat, but it has also killed some mountaineers and astronauts.

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

Some of these maps have nice highlighting of the Ural mountains:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/docs/refmaps.html

It states that Gora El'brus in the Caucasus MTS. is the highest point in Europe at 5633 m or about 18506 feet. Yet, the lowest pont in in Europe is only a few miles away at -28 m or 92 feet below sea level on the Caspian Sea shore, Azerbaijan.

When people first tried to climb these mountains it must have been for some reasons.

Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH): the descriptive term used by James F. Wilson to characterize the most common haplotype in parts of Europe. "If you have one mutation in either direction, then you are AMH 1.15+. The AMH 1.15 haplotype is also referred to as the Atlantic Modal Cluster or AMC. Generally 1.15+ puts you in haplogroup 1 (H1) (which is R1b), but not always." The Super Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype came later when 37-markers were first used.

[vineviz]

Am I missing something here, or is the accepted science on the side of the AMH = R1b and that R1b was in the F-C Refugium at the end of the last ice age?

This thread appears to have moved past this point, so pardon me for bringing it back to the fore.

I suspect that "accepted science" is, like many things, in the eye of the beholder. But I think I can say a few things on the topic that are not controversial.

The AMH is commonly found in R1b, but not in all of it. It turns out that the AMH actually represents the modal haplotype of a specific subclade of R1b, namely the one defined (using FTNDA terminology) by the SNP rs9785659. This clade roughly corresponds to the archaic designation ht15, and encompasses the vast majority of the R1b found in central and western Europe.

rs9785659 was only found to perform this function, though, in April of this year. It has not yet been published, but it will be soon.

The author (Semino) who first made the case for R1b as a paleolithic remnant did so long before the newest SNPs were identified, long before extended STR haplotypes were widely generated, and long before our current refined understanding of STR mutational processes was developed.

Semino is still often cited in relatively new studies, so clearly some scientists are willing to accept (at least tacitly) her findings. But I think that even a casual enthusiast today can review her findings, in light of new knowledge, and see how weak the case for R1b being a paleolithic remnant truly is.

I happen to have concluded that her interpretation is wrong, given what we know today. But even people who are not willing to go that far should be prudent enough to admit that during the past eight years a lot of data have emerged that call her argument into question. Maybe her conclusion is right (I don't think so). But even then, the argument needs to be reconstructed using more modern methods and better data. So far, no one has stepped forward to do this.

VV

[Stevo]

Since the R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype falls within R1b1b2, the finding of R1b1b2 in Georgia should raise some eyebrows. Most of R1b in Turkey , in that paper, is R1b3.

R1b1b2 has been found at higher frequencies elsewhere farther east than Georgia.

It has been found, for example, at 50% overall among the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural region of Russia and in some locations in excess of 82%.

It has been found at rates ranging from 19% to 40% among the Armenians.

So why would finding 10% (or less) R1b1b2 in Georgia "raise eyebrows"?

[MMaddi]

Since the R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype falls within R1b1b2, the finding of R1b1b2 in Georgia should raise some eyebrows. Most of R1b in Turkey , in that paper, is R1b3.

R1b3 is the old name of what is now called R1b1b2. The haplogroup designations in Georgia and Turkey are most likely the same, leaving aside the question of whether they differ as to the type of R1b1b2/R1b3 - ht35 (eastern form) or ht15 (western form). They're probably both ht35, especially if DYS393=12 for both the Turkish and Georgian results.

[PDHOTLEN]

some R1b1b2 in Georgia...hmm

Since the R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype falls within R1b1b2, the finding of R1b1b2 in Georgia should raise some eyebrows. Most of R1b in Turkey , in that paper, is R1b3.

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

Socrates said that he was ignorant . . . at this point, I do not really know. But I will feel safe saying the M207G branch of Hg R migrated around Eurasia to Europe, Caucasus, Middle East, Central Asia, and northern India-Pakistan. This makes me feel the big migration had already started by M207G. I guess we will know more by 2011.