origin of R 1 b

[PDHOTLEN]

It's about the time frame, in part

Again, I don't have any references in front of me. I just now browsed my way in to this forum.

Anatolia was a major geographical factor over thousands of years. So it's tempting to lump populations, etc. together, even tho they were centuries apart.

From what I've read, it seems that the Armenians arrived from the west (via the Balkans), along with, or somewhat near in time, the Phrygians. That was rather recent, compared with what all went on before. The heart of Armenia was Anatolia, and not the present rump of their territory as it exists today.

I've come around to thinking that the R1b split occurred somewhere in the vast area where R1a1 originated; maybe a bit further south near the Caspian Sea, or etc. It wasn't as arid, way back when, when that happened.

There may have been several incursions of R1b, mixed with other haplogroups, into the Anatolian area. Within historical times there was an incursion of Celts, for example. The early Hittites, etc. may have had some R11b mixed in, when they arrived via the Balkans. But some R1b may be from the earliest times during or shortly after the LGM and their split from R1.

The Azeri Turks flooded the eastern part of Trans Caucasia, which apparently amounted to a sort of ethnic cleansing. So Georgia and Armenia (lumped together on a pie chart I downloaded) would seem to have some of that earliest form of R1b. But the Azeris, being Turks ultimately from central Asia, might well have some R1a & even R1b in their blood (another R1b incursion).

I think I've run this subject into the ground - ha ha.

R1a1* & U5b2

[Stevo]

Cinnioglu's study,Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia found a correlation between y haplogroup G and the Hattic and Kaska cultures:

The totality of G lineages do not show micro-geographic structure on the basis of the criteria used to describe the nine geographic regions . . . but they do significantly correlate . . . when evaluated on the basis of the archeological boundaries of the Bronze Age Hattic and Kaska cultures. (Cinnioglu, p. 4.)

The ellipses above skip mathematical formulas in parentheses, which can be seen in the original report.

So, it looks like the non-Indo-European Hatti were probably mostly G, at least according to Cinnioglu et al.

[PDHOTLEN]

interesting paper (above)

I downloaded it, but haven't read it, except for the Intro and to glance at the tables.

But what are the Haplogroups associated with Georgia, for example? Instead of a haplogroup, it gives "P49a.f-Ht35 or something like that. Georgia would have relict haplogroups, if there are any remaining in those parts. ISOGG says that R1b originated in SW Asia.

[Stevo]

I downloaded it, but haven't read it, except for the Intro and to glance at the tables.

But what are the Haplogroups associated with Georgia, for example? Instead of a haplogroup, it gives "P49a.f-Ht35 or something like that. Georgia would have relict haplogroups, if there are any remaining in those parts. ISOGG says that R1b originated in SW Asia.

Georgia is predominantly G2 and J2, I believe. There is some R1b1b2 there, maybe at around 10% or less.

SW Asia covers a lot of territory. Apparently R1b1b2 is not associated with the old Hattic regions.

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

Socrates said that he was ignorant . . . at this point, I do not really know. But I will feel safe saying the M207G branch of Hg R migrated around Eurasia to Europe, Caucasus, Middle East, Central Asia, and northern India-Pakistan. This makes me feel the big migration had already started by M207G. I guess we will know more by 2011.

[PDHOTLEN]

some R1b1b2 in Georgia...hmm

Since the R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype falls within R1b1b2, the finding of R1b1b2 in Georgia should raise some eyebrows. Most of R1b in Turkey , in that paper, is R1b3.

[MMaddi]

Since the R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype falls within R1b1b2, the finding of R1b1b2 in Georgia should raise some eyebrows. Most of R1b in Turkey , in that paper, is R1b3.

R1b3 is the old name of what is now called R1b1b2. The haplogroup designations in Georgia and Turkey are most likely the same, leaving aside the question of whether they differ as to the type of R1b1b2/R1b3 - ht35 (eastern form) or ht15 (western form). They're probably both ht35, especially if DYS393=12 for both the Turkish and Georgian results.

[Stevo]

Since the R1b Atlantic Modal Haplotype falls within R1b1b2, the finding of R1b1b2 in Georgia should raise some eyebrows. Most of R1b in Turkey , in that paper, is R1b3.

R1b1b2 has been found at higher frequencies elsewhere farther east than Georgia.

It has been found, for example, at 50% overall among the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural region of Russia and in some locations in excess of 82%.

It has been found at rates ranging from 19% to 40% among the Armenians.

So why would finding 10% (or less) R1b1b2 in Georgia "raise eyebrows"?

[vineviz]

Am I missing something here, or is the accepted science on the side of the AMH = R1b and that R1b was in the F-C Refugium at the end of the last ice age?

This thread appears to have moved past this point, so pardon me for bringing it back to the fore.

I suspect that "accepted science" is, like many things, in the eye of the beholder. But I think I can say a few things on the topic that are not controversial.

The AMH is commonly found in R1b, but not in all of it. It turns out that the AMH actually represents the modal haplotype of a specific subclade of R1b, namely the one defined (using FTNDA terminology) by the SNP rs9785659. This clade roughly corresponds to the archaic designation ht15, and encompasses the vast majority of the R1b found in central and western Europe.

rs9785659 was only found to perform this function, though, in April of this year. It has not yet been published, but it will be soon.

The author (Semino) who first made the case for R1b as a paleolithic remnant did so long before the newest SNPs were identified, long before extended STR haplotypes were widely generated, and long before our current refined understanding of STR mutational processes was developed.

Semino is still often cited in relatively new studies, so clearly some scientists are willing to accept (at least tacitly) her findings. But I think that even a casual enthusiast today can review her findings, in light of new knowledge, and see how weak the case for R1b being a paleolithic remnant truly is.

I happen to have concluded that her interpretation is wrong, given what we know today. But even people who are not willing to go that far should be prudent enough to admit that during the past eight years a lot of data have emerged that call her argument into question. Maybe her conclusion is right (I don't think so). But even then, the argument needs to be reconstructed using more modern methods and better data. So far, no one has stepped forward to do this.

VV

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

Some of these maps have nice highlighting of the Ural mountains:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/docs/refmaps.html

It states that Gora El'brus in the Caucasus MTS. is the highest point in Europe at 5633 m or about 18506 feet. Yet, the lowest pont in in Europe is only a few miles away at -28 m or 92 feet below sea level on the Caspian Sea shore, Azerbaijan.

When people first tried to climb these mountains it must have been for some reasons.

Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH): the descriptive term used by James F. Wilson to characterize the most common haplotype in parts of Europe. "If you have one mutation in either direction, then you are AMH 1.15+. The AMH 1.15 haplotype is also referred to as the Atlantic Modal Cluster or AMC. Generally 1.15+ puts you in haplogroup 1 (H1) (which is R1b), but not always." The Super Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype came later when 37-markers were first used.

[Eki]

When people first tried to climb these mountains it must have been for some reasons.

http://www.alpineascents.com/why-climb-everest.asp

When George Mallory responded "Because it is there" to the 'Why climb Everest question', he passed on a sort of permanent approval to those who wished to risk their lives climbing. But one should really have asked Mallory and his predecessors, "How did you know it was there?" Possibly "Why climb Everest?" is best answered, "because we found it."

Was there a better reason to go to the moon? I don't think so. Curiousity killed the cat, but it has also killed some mountaineers and astronauts.

[GregKiroKHR1bL1]

That is a good reason . . . Maybe, they were attempting to get away from the other people in in the south. I would think as they found new hunting grounds. Some returned home now and then . . .

http://www.alpineascents.com/why-climb-everest.asp



Was there a better reason to go to the moon? I don't think so. Curiousity killed the cat, but it has also killed some mountaineers and astronauts.

[PDHOTLEN]

I don't know much...

I was trying to extrapolate from what little ISOGG has at the bottom of their "R" page. But I'm glad that my clumsiness got some clarifications from some of you more knowledgeable scholars.

The Caspian Sea overflowed its banks when the huge ice sheets melted in the north. There was a rather vast shallow sea connecting the Aral Sea and the Black Sea with the swollen Caspian Sea.. This would have created a barrier to peoples to the north and south of that water. Depending on how long that situation lasted, it might have had an isolating effect on DNA. Anyway, that's what I get out of it.

[jan]

I just read Geographic Patterns of Haplogroup R1b in the British Isles, By Kevin D. Campbell, http://www.jogg.info/31/campbell.pdf

Haplotype(???) OGAP17, shown in Figure 4 on page 8, is a match to my father. Virtually every other type has some interesting history associated with it, or at least several lines of text. For ours, it says "OGAP 17... show[s] a clear affinity for Northern England."

A single sentence??? Come on, now!!!

[T E Peterman]

Until data comes out that is based on confirmed SNPs, I wouldn't pay too much attention to this type of an analysis.

Timothy Peterman