Ydna in the Nordic countries.

[Paul_Johnsen]

Thanks to Vineviz, I downloaded Mapviewer and made the attached gradient maps of the ydna frequencies Nordic countries excluding Iceland and the Faroes.

I based the frequencies in Norway on the regional data from "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway". I included Bergen in the Western Norwegian region and Oslo in the Eastern Norwegian region. I also split the Northern Norwegian region into Finnmark and the rest because of the higher level of N3 in Finnmark (according to the article) assuming the relative frequency of all other haplogroups remained constant.

The data for Sweden are from "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective", the Finns are from "Regional differences among the Finns: A Y-chromosomal perspective". I have split Saami in two Swedish Saami and Finnish Saami (Data from "The Western and Eastern Roots of the Saami—the Story of Genetic “Outliers” Told by Mitochondrial DNA and Y Chromosomes" as well as Karlsson 2006 for the Swedish saami).

The data for the Danes comes from a whole range of smaller studies. The level of I1a vs other I is difficult to determine for the Danes.

The samplesizes from Sweden are all very low, and it is probably best to view these maps with a good portion of healthy skepticism.

[PDHOTLEN]

re R1a1: hmm...

The coastal distribution of R1a goes against my pet theory, assuming that the warmer colors mean highest density. Maybe the R1a's arrived by sea(?), instead of via overland thru Finland on horseback.

[Eki]

I think the frequency of I1a could support the sagas about Fornjot, the king of Geatland/Gotland, Kvenland and Finland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornjot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvenland

[Eki]

I think the frequency of I1a could support the sagas about Fornjot, the king of Geatland/Gotland, Kvenland and Finland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornjot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvenland

There seems to be a hot spot of I1a in Lapland but not that much I1a in Finland Proper (Southwestern Finland). This Wikipedia-article about Vanlandi, one of Fornjot's descendants, says that in Old Norse Finnland meant Lapland. So maybe Fornjot was actually the king of Lapland, Kvenland and Geatland/Gotland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanlandi

Vanlandi or Vanlande was a Swedish king at Uppsala of the House of Yngling in Norse mythology. He was the son of Sveigðir whom he succeeded as king. He married a girl from Lapland (Old Norse: Finnland), but forgot about her. In revenge, the girl arranged so that Vanlandi was hag ridden to death. He was succeeded by his son Visbur.

[Paul_Johnsen]

...assuming that the warmer colors mean highest density...

They do.

Maybe the R1a's arrived by sea(?), instead of via overland thru Finland on horseback.

IMO it is doubtful that R1a arrived via Finland on horseback.

Maybe R1a was the dominant haplogroup on the northwest coast of Scandinavia? As far as I can tell it seems to be the most diverse haplogroup there (apart from maybe Q). Maybe R1a was "first" to that part of Scandinavia?

[Eki]

They do.




IMO it is doubtful that R1a arrived via Finland on horseback.

Maybe R1a was the dominant haplogroup on the northwest coast of Scandinavia? As far as I can tell it seems to be the most diverse haplogroup there (apart from maybe Q). Maybe R1a was "first" to that part of Scandinavia?

On the other hand, I think there could have been corridor through Finland and Sweden to Central Norway. It may have gone through the hot spot in Southern Ostrobothnia in Finland as illustrated in the picture below. Maybe there is so much R1a especially in Norway because they hit the Atlantic Ocean and couldn't get further.

[PDHOTLEN]

only peasants walk

If R1a(1)'s were the earliest to occupy the Scandinavian peninsula, then they may have come on foot. But I like to think of my conquering ancestors as coming by either sea-worthy craft or on horseback (ha ha!).

I am only 3/8 Norwegian, but inherited my Y-DNA from my paternal line.

R1a1
blood group A+

[Paul_Johnsen]

On the other hand, I think there could have been corridor through Finland and Sweden to Central Norway. It may have gone through the hot spot in Southern Ostrobothnia in Finland as illustrated in the picture below. Maybe there is so much R1a especially in Norway because they hit the Atlantic Ocean and couldn't get further.

I doubt it. That is some pretty dangerous terrain. Just ask the Swedish army of 1718. Also I don't understand why they didn't bring with them any N3, or the purpose of going to the Atlantic Ocean. Nor do I understand why R1a1, R1b, I1a and old I1c in Norway have almost exactly the same ASD (as far as I can figure) if they didn't arrive at the about the same time.

[Paul_Johnsen]

If R1a(1)'s were the earliest to occupy the Scandinavian peninsula, then they may have come on foot. But I like to think of my conquering ancestors as coming by either sea-worthy craft or on horseback (ha ha!).

I am only 3/8 Norwegian, but inherited my Y-DNA from my paternal line.

R1a1
blood group A+

I see ....

[Eki]

I doubt it. That is some pretty dangerous terrain. Just ask the Swedish army of 1718.

I think that depends on who's meeting them on the other side of the Keel mountains. Maybe the terrain was more friendly in 718 than it was in 1718.

[Paul_Johnsen]

I think that depends on who's meeting them on the other side of the Keel mountains. Maybe the terrain was more friendly in 718 than it was in 1718.

They made it across to the Norwegian side. During the withdrawal however they lost many men to the elements.

The unsuccessful invasion was abandoned, and Charles' body was brought across the border. Another army corps under Carl Gustaf Armfeldt marched against Trondheim, but had to make a disastrous retreat, during which most of the 5,000 soldiers perished in a severe winter storm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_XII_of_Sweden

[Eki]

They made it across to the Norwegian side. During the withdrawal however they lost many men to the elements.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_XII_of_Sweden

But it was winter, it doesn't mean the area isn't more hospitable in summer. Napoleon lost near Moscow likely mainly because it was winter. And the Soviets lost 2 divisions in the battles of Suomussalmi and Raate road in January 1940 mainly because it was winter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suomussalmi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raate-Road

[Eki]

Earl Hakon prefered to go through Sweden to the Gulf of Bothnia in summertime:

http://no.wikisource.org/wiki/H%C3%A5kon_jarls_saga

Om høsten drog Håkon jarl til Helsingland og satte opp skipene sine der. Så tok han landvegen gjennom Helsingland og Jemtland og østfra over Kjølen og kom ned i Trondheimen. Straks gikk folk over til ham, og han fikk seg skip. Da Gunnhildssønnene hørte det, gikk de om bord i skipene sine og seilte ut etter fjorden. Håkon jarl drog ut til Lade og var der om vinteren, men Gunnhildssønnene satt på Møre, og de dreiv og overfalt og drepte folk for hverandre. Håkon jarl holdt fast på riket sitt i Trondheimen og var der som oftest om vinteren, men om sommeren drog han av og til øst i Helsingland, og der tok han skipene sine og seilte i austerveg, og herjet der om sommeren, men stundom ble han i Trondheimen også og hadde hæren ute, og da kunne ikke Gunnhildssønnene greie seg nord for Stad.

[Paul_Johnsen]

But it was winter, it doesn't mean the area isn't more hospitable in summer. Napoleon lost near Moscow likely mainly because it was winter. And the Soviets lost 2 divisions in the battles of Suomussalmi and Raate road in January 1940 mainly because it was winter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suomussalmi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raate-Road

I think the Swedish army withdrawing in the south (there were about 30,000 I think) did not lose a single man to the weather.

Furthermore: when the Swedes were awarded Trøndelag in the "treaty of Roskilde" 1658, they knew that there was no way they could send in support over the harsh terrain in case of rebellion. They therefore implemented some "borderline genocidal" policies in order to scare the local population into not rebelling. The locals rebeled and the Swedes were forced into a humiliating withdrawal.

Earl Hakon prefered to go through Sweden to the Gulf of Bothnia in summertime:

http://no.wikisource.org/wiki/H%C3%A5kon_jarls_saga

I don't think it is wise to put to much into everything Snorre wrote. A lot of what he wrote is most likely pure political propaganda.

[Eki]

I think the Swedish army withdrawing in the south (there were about 30,000 I think) did not lose a single man to the weather.

That's probably because winter weather isn't usually as severe in southern Scandinavia than in central Scandinavia.

There's clearly a passage between Norway and Sweden near Trondheim:

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/lgcolor/nocolor.htm