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  • Originally posted by Eki
    John Haywood writes further:The Early Germanic Iron age or Migration Period (400-600) saw the proliferation of fortifications across Scandinavia, over 1500 are known. As Scandinavia suffered no invasions from outside in this period these fortifications should be seen as evidence of internal insecurity born of these intense power struggles. Many of these fortifications were probably the centres of chieftaincies and local kingdoms. There is also evidence of a tendency for settlement to move away from the coasts, a sign that piracy was rife. Though, no doubt, unreliable in detail. the early historical traditions of the Scandinavians hold that this was indeed a period of constant conflict between competing tribes. Though Scandinavia escaped invasion during the Migration Period, the Jutland tribes of the Angles and Jutes joined the Saxons in migrating to Britain in the 5th century. What prompted this migration is not known, but it is possible that they were under pressure from neighbouring peoples.
    I remember reading that many of the settlements in Denmark emerging from the Migration period had evidence of trade and manufacturing, and were also major farming communities - some quite wealthy. i imagine they were quick to cultivate and protect their resources even if from each other. Though it seems smaller bands with independent warlords went off to Britain, I believe from Roman finds there in Denmark, they feel that there may have been a grander overlordship in Denmark than originally thought. Perhaps some of these were made more influential than others with Roman support. Or maybe this support kept other tribes away for awhile or allowed them to spread out.

    I don't know enough about it to babble on about it - but I do find it fascinating ;-)

    Jodee

    Comment


    • EKI quoted from the literature:
      : "Though Scandinavia escaped invasion during the Migration Period, the Jutland tribes of the Angles and Jutes joined the Saxons in migrating to Britain in the 5th century. What prompted this migration is not known, but it is possible that they were under pressure from neighbouring peoples. "

      COMMENT: It was about this time that Attila's Huns reached Saxony, which must have created much domino pressure westwards, starting with the Saxons.

      Comment


      • Westward domino effect from Attila 5th C.

        I neglected to mention also that Britain had suffered much loss of defensive manpower in three successive generations, when Romano-British legions were led, not to return, into Europe in support of abortive attempts by regional imperial claimants to seize power in Rome, ca 4th C AD. There had also been some noteworthy plagues, and loss of civil order and infrastructure.
        This made it an attractive vacancy for Attila-driven migrants from Anglo-Jutland and Saxony.

        Comment


        • Six major German tribes, the Visigoths, the Ostrogoths, the Vandals, the Burgundians, the Lombards, and the Franks participated in the fragmentation and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. The Vandals were actually two tribes, the Asding and the Siling Vandals. In the 2nd century BC, Germanic tribes move south and east from Scandinavia [three countries of northern Europe-Norway and Sweden (which together form the Scandinavian Peninsula), and Denmark]. The Goths and the Vandals drive the Balts east along the coast of the Baltic.

          By the 3rd century AD various German tribal confederations, all of whom will leave a lasting mark on European history, are ranged along the natural borders of the Roman Empire. They have settled in the territories east of the Rhine and north of the Danube and Black Sea. From here, in the great upheavals of the 4th and 5th century (known as the Völkerwanderung, 'migration of the peoples'), they will move throughout western Europe. During the 5th century A.D., Attila the Hun and other Huns were members of a nomadic and warlike Asian people who devastated or controlled large parts of eastern and central Europe.

          http://www.friesian.com/germania.htm
          http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/...HistoryID=ab86
          http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/...raphid=bpb#bpb
          http://groups.msn.com/AncientWisdomC...e/magyars.msnw

          Originally posted by derinos
          I neglected to mention also that Britain had suffered much loss of defensive manpower in three successive generations, when Romano-British legions were led, not to return, into Europe in support of abortive attempts by regional imperial claimants to seize power in Rome, ca 4th C AD. There had also been some noteworthy plagues, and loss of civil order and infrastructure.
          This made it an attractive vacancy for Attila-driven migrants from Anglo-Jutland and Saxony.

          Comment


          • I think Paul Johnsen's maps may help to explain why Ireland seems to lack R1a despite strong Norse influence:

            http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

            The Norse in Ireland were lead by Olaf the White:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_the_White

            Olaf the White was a son of Ingjald Helgasson, who was distantly related to the Yngling kings of Vestfold, near present day Oslo, which is dominated by I1a. His followers were probably also mainly from that region of Norway.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingjald_Helgasson

            Ingjald Helgasson[1] was a Hiberno-Norse chieftain of the ninth century CE. According to the Landnamabok he was the son of Helgi, the son of Olaf, the son of Gudrod, the son of Halfdan Hvitbeinn; he was thus distantly related to the Yngling kings of Vestfold and later Norway. According to Eyrbyggja saga, Ingjald's mother was Thora, the daughter of Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye who was a son of Ragnar Lodbrok.

            Ingjald had at least one son, Olaf the White, who became King of Dublin.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Eki
              I think Paul Johnsen's maps may help to explain why Ireland seems to lack R1a despite strong Norse influence:

              http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

              The Norse in Ireland were lead by Olaf the White:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_the_White

              Olaf the White was a son of Ingjald Helgasson, who was distantly related to the Yngling kings of Vestfold, near present day Oslo, which is dominated by I1a. His followers were probably also mainly from that region of Norway.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingjald_Helgasson
              Ingjald Helgasson was a great-great-grandson of Halfdan Hvitbeinn:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halfdan_Hvitbeinn

              Halfdan Hvitbeinn was the son of Olaf Trätälja, who is said to have settled Värmland, which is a hotspot of I1a in Sweden.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Tr%C3%A4t%C3%A4lja
              Olaf Tree Feller (Old Norse: Ólafr trételgja, Swedish: Olof Trätälja, Norwegian: Olav Tretelgja) was the son of the Swedish king Ingjald Ill-ruler of the House of Yngling according to Ynglingatal.

              Heimskringla

              His mother was Gauthild, a princess of West Götaland, whose maternal grandfather was Olof the Sharp-sighted, the king of Nerike.

              His mother sent him to his foster-father Bove in West Götaland, where he grew up with his foster-brother Saxe who was surnamed Flette.

              When Olof heard of his father's death, he assembled the men who were willing to follow him and went to his kinsmen in Nerike, because after his father's atrocities, the Swedes had grown hostile towards the Ynglings.

              When the Swedes learnt that Olof and his kin had sought refuge in Nerike, they were attacked and had to head west through deep and mountainous forests (Kilsbergen) to Lake Vänern and the estuary of Klarälven (where Karlstad is presently situated). Here, they settled and cleared land. Soon they had created a whole province called Värmland, where they could make good living.


              When the Swedes learnt that Olof was clearing land, they were amused and called him the Tree-feller. Olof married a woman named Solveig who was a daughter of Halfdan Guldtand of Soleyar. Olof and Solveigh had two sons, Ingjald Olofsson and Halfdan Hvitbeinn, who were brought up in Soleyar in the house of his mother's uncle Sölve.

              Because of king Ivar Vidfamne and his harsh rule many Swedes emigrated to Värmland, and they became so numerous that the province could not sustain them. The land was afflicted by famine of which the Swedes accused the king. It was an old tradition in Sweden of holding the king responsible for the wealth of the land (see Domalde). The Swedes accused Olof of neglecting his sacrifices to the gods and believed that this was the cause of the famine.

              The Swedish settlers thus rebelled against Olof, surrounded his house on the shores of lake Vänern and burnt him inside it. Thus he was sacrificed to Odin, like his ancestor Domalde.

              Comment


              • Maybe it was Ivar Vidfamne who spread R1b westwards in southern Sweden while sending the Ynglings on the run:

                Ivarr inn víðfaðmi or Ivar Vidfamne was a semi-legendary king of Sweden c. 655- c.695, and according to the Heimskringla and the Hervarar saga also the king of Norway, Denmark, Saxony and parts of England.

                He began as king of Scania and conquered Sweden by defeating Ingjald Illråde. He is then said to have conquered all of Scandinavia and parts of England. Because of his harsh rule, many Swedes fled west and populated Värmland under its king Olof Trätälja. His last campaign was in Russia where he died, defeated by Odin in disguise. (Another source claims he took his life by drowning himself in the Gulf of Finland.)
                Ivar seems to have belonged to the Scylding dynasty, a royal family of the Danes:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylding

                Old English Scylding (plural Scyldingas) and Old Norse Skjöldung (plural Skjöldungar), meaning in both languages Shielding, refers to members of a legendary royal family of Danes and sometimes to their people.

                Comment


                • The reason why we need more genetic testing is because people did not have time to write a lot of history before the 7th century.

                  Here is a history from that time:
                  Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus
                  Yrthr Pen Draig
                  Bede's Ecclesiastical History, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, and the Welsh Annals

                  Sorry, I have to run for now . . .

                  Originally posted by Eki
                  Maybe it was Ivar Vidfamne who spread R1b westwards in southern Sweden while sending the Ynglings on the run:



                  Ivar seems to have belonged to the Scylding dynasty, a royal family of the Danes:

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylding

                  Comment


                  • I found this interesting website of the Jat people in Pakistan and India:

                    http://www.jatland.com/home/Jats

                    They reside in the area where I have automomal DNA matches according to DNATribes:



                    They say the Goths may have been descended from the Jats:

                    http://www.jatland.com/home/Goths

                    Goths are Jats

                    According to Jat historians Bhim Singh Dahiya and Thakur Deshraj Goths are nothing but Jats. Thakur Deshraj writes in his book on History of Jats “Jat Itihas” (Hindi) that the country Assyria gets its name from Asiagh gotra Jats. The origin of word Asiagh is from Sanskrit word ‘Asi’ meaning sword. According to Kautilya the people who depended on ‘Asi’ (sword) for their living were known as Asiagh. The Asiaghs moved from Asirgarh in Malwa to Europe. Those who settled in Jangladesh were called Asiagh and those who moved to Scandinavia were known as Asi. Jats entered Scandinavia around 500 BCE and their leader was Odin. James Tod considers Odin to be derived from Buddha or Bodan. The Asi Jats founded Jutland as their homeland in Scandinavia. The religious book of Scandinavia ‘Edda’ mentions that the ancient inhabitants of Scandinavia were Jats or Jits who were Aryans known as Asi people and came to this land from Asirgarh. Asirgarh is a site of an ancient fort situated in Burhanpur district of Malwa region in Madhya Pradesh, India. Thakur Deshraj further quotes Scandinavian writer Mr Count Johnsturn who says that Scandinavians came from India. According to James Tod Scandinavia is derived from Sanskrit word ‘Skandhnabh’. Chaudhary Dhanraj published an article in 'Maharathi' (January 1926) that son of Banasur, Skandh, was defeated by Krishna who moved to Skandnabh.

                    Alexander Cunningham considers Jats of India, Goths of Europe and yuezhi of China as same people.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Eki
                      I found this interesting website of the Jat people in Pakistan and India:

                      http://www.jatland.com/home/Jats

                      They reside in the area where I have automomal DNA matches according to DNATribes:



                      They say the Goths may have been descended from the Jats:

                      http://www.jatland.com/home/Goths
                      It is an interesting but, unfortunately unconvincing claim for me. It smacks of the nationalistic "scholarship" that is found in India as a reaction against the past European colonialism. It is very similar to nationalistic claims that the Aryans originated in India and went to Europe. All of which is disputed by the established academe.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hando
                        It is an interesting but, unfortunately unconvincing claim for me. It smacks of the nationalistic "scholarship" that is found in India as a reaction against the past European colonialism. It is very similar to nationalistic claims that the Aryans originated in India and went to Europe. All of which is disputed by the established academe.
                        I don't know. Archaeologists have found in Sweden a Buddha statue from around AD 500 and Indian sea-shells in Finland from about the same period. So, there must have been some connections with India and Scandinavia, but I don't know if they were direct or through trading.

                        Comment


                        • According to Snorre Sturlusson, Odin had ancestors named Bjar, Jat and Finn. Maybe Bjarmaland was named after Bjar, Juteland and/or Gotland after Jat and Finland after Finn?

                          http://www.jatland.com/home/Jats

                          Snorre list the generations before Odin and starts with Thor and Siv and followers Loride, Eindride, Vingtor, Vingener, Moda, Mage, Seskef, Bedvig, Athra, Annan, Iterman, Heremod, Skjaldun, Bjar, Jat, Gudolf, Finn, Fridlef and Odin/Oden. Snorre uses the same kind of ancestors' to Odin as we find in the Anglo-Saxon tradition. [63]

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Eki
                            I don't know. Archaeologists have found in Sweden a Buddha statue from around AD 500 and Indian sea-shells in Finland from about the same period. So, there must have been some connections with India and Scandinavia, but I don't know if they were direct or through trading.
                            Hi Eki, I dont know either, but I know as I am sure you do, that Lapis Lazuli from Afghanistan, Roman coins, Byzantine glass, Celtic cauldrons and silk from Samarkand were also amongst the artifacts discovered in Scandinavian nations along with the Buddha statue and Indian sea shells.

                            I am more inclined to believe all these were through trading rather than some immigration from the Indian subcontinent.
                            And these artifacts did not necessarily mean that there was any direct trading connections either. But that the artifacts were passed on through middlemen. If you think about it, all throughout history, the great civillisations imported exotic items through trade that was passed on indirectly. If you were a powerful king of Sweden or Finland, wouldnt you want to display your powers by acquiring and showing off such exotic goods? It doesnt mean that Swedes or Scandinavians have to have Indian genes.
                            All my best.
                            Last edited by Hando; 14 January 2008, 08:20 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hando
                              It doesnt mean that Swedes or Scandinavians have to have Indian genes.
                              I know it doesn't, but for some reason DNATribes says I have Pakistani and Indian genes, and I'd like to know why.

                              Comment


                              • Scandinavian Genes

                                Originally posted by Eki
                                I know it doesn't, but for some reason DNATribes says I have Pakistani and Indian genes, and I'd like to know why.
                                I think it's more likely the other way around. The Pakistani and Indians they tested have Scandinavian genes.

                                Comment

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