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  • #76
    Originally posted by Eki
    On the analysis page of the Finland DNA-project, the longest TMRCA estimate between I1a-Bothnia members is 1770 years, that would be about the Roman Iron Age, it would also suit the Finnish Iron-Age archeology, which seems to be heavily influenced by Scandinavia in western Finland. Distribution of R1a in Europe fits better the distribution of the Corded Ware culture.
    Everything I've read on Finnish DNA mentions strong evidence of a 'bottle-neck effect'. This would cut down on genetic diversity and make it appear younger than it really is.

    The 2 library books on Finnish History I have checked out, and the Lappalainen 'REGIONAL DIFFERENCES AMONG THE FINNS: A Y-CHROMOSOMAL PERSPECTIVE', all discuss evidence of major Scandinavian migrations to South-Western and Western Finland during the Bronze Age. The interaction with Scandinavia continued during the Iron Age, but the cultural change had happened by the Bronze Age. I haven't read anything about evidence of a major Iron Age invasion from Scandinavia. Both books discussed a major 1st century A.D. invasion of Finnish speakers from Estonia.

    I don't think there is any genetic evidence for an Pre-Bronze Age/Bronze Age invasion of R1a in either Scandinavia or Finland. Scandinavian R1a looks to be less than 2000 years old. It is probably the haplogroup of the people Thor Heyerdahl was researching before his death.

    I admit the FTDNA MRCA estimates supports your theory of an Iron Age date for Finland I1a, but I question the current accuracy of those estimates.

    Hopefully further research, and more DNA results, will give us a clearer picture of Finland's prehistory.

    Steve

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by s trangsrud
      The 2 library books on Finnish History I have checked out, and the Lappalainen 'REGIONAL DIFFERENCES AMONG THE FINNS: A Y-CHROMOSOMAL PERSPECTIVE', all discuss evidence of major Scandinavian migrations to South-Western and Western Finland during the Bronze Age. The interaction with Scandinavia continued during the Iron Age, but the cultural change had happened by the Bronze Age. I haven't read anything about evidence of a major Iron Age invasion from Scandinavia. Both books discussed a major 1st century A.D. invasion of Finnish speakers from Estonia.

      I don't think there is any genetic evidence for an Pre-Bronze Age/Bronze Age invasion of R1a in either Scandinavia or Finland. Scandinavian R1a looks to be less than 2000 years old. It is probably the haplogroup of the people Thor Heyerdahl was researching before his death.
      Unfortunately the books on Finnish pre-history in English are scarce and somewhat outdated, but newer books in Finnish and articles talk about probable Scandinavian immigration to Finland in the Iron Age. Lappalainen is a geneticist, a young doctoral student, so she doesn't necessarily have that wide knowledge on archeology and history.

      Meteorologist Reijo Solantie has written about the climate change in the Bronze Age. He thinks the Corded Ware culture and subsequent cultures in Southwest Finland may have moved south when the climate got colder. The archaeological findings dated BC 500 to 0 are very scarce in Finland:

      http://www.sarks.fi/fa/faxxii.html

      Reijo Solantie

      ASPECTS OF SOME PREHISTORIC CULTURES IN RELATION TO CLIMATE IN SOUTHWESTERN FINLAND

      Abstract

      The cooling of the Finnish climate since 2800 BC after the Holocene optimum may have caused the retreat southwestwards of the Corded Ware and subsequent west-Finnish cultures, so that 3000 years later their settlement was to be found only on the southwestern coast. Indications of the cooling main of winters in just this period are given by the study of lake sediments cited and by the movement of the limit of occurrence of spruce. At each stage of retreat, the ’cold limit’ of settlement lay along the isopleths of the duration of permanent snow cover in the present climate. The problem for those cultures was the collecting of winter hay fodder for cattle without metal tools. The retreat was slower at the beginning of the Bronze Age, perhaps due to the introduction of flint-edged sickles. Assuming that each limit of the settlement during the retreat corresponded to the change of climate that also continued during the Bronze Age, it was found that the mean winter temperature fell by 4 to 5 °C. This temperature fall in Finland involves a contribution caused by the appreciable decrease in the volume and mean depth of the Gulf of Finland and the Gulf of Bothnia due to land uplift.

      Keywords: Ancient Fennoscandian cultures, Holocene climate, Trapa natans, spreading of Norway spruce, Litorina Sea and climate, traveling and climate
      Interestingly the all four members from the southwestern archipelago in the Finland DNA-project seem to be R1a1 or R1a.

      Originally posted by s trangsrud
      I don't think there is any genetic evidence for an Pre-Bronze Age/Bronze Age invasion of R1a in either Scandinavia or Finland. Scandinavian R1a looks to be less than 2000 years old. It is probably the haplogroup of the people Thor Heyerdahl was researching before his death.
      The article "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" by Dupuy thinks R1a might have come to Norway with the Corded Ware culture.
      Last edited by Eki; 16 September 2007, 06:44 AM.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by s trangsrud
        Everything I've read on Finnish DNA mentions strong evidence of a 'bottle-neck effect'. This would cut down on genetic diversity and make it appear younger than it really is.

        The 2 library books on Finnish History I have checked out, and the Lappalainen 'REGIONAL DIFFERENCES AMONG THE FINNS: A Y-CHROMOSOMAL PERSPECTIVE', all discuss evidence of major Scandinavian migrations to South-Western and Western Finland during the Bronze Age. The interaction with Scandinavia continued during the Iron Age, but the cultural change had happened by the Bronze Age. I haven't read anything about evidence of a major Iron Age invasion from Scandinavia. Both books discussed a major 1st century A.D. invasion of Finnish speakers from Estonia.

        I don't think there is any genetic evidence for an Pre-Bronze Age/Bronze Age invasion of R1a in either Scandinavia or Finland. Scandinavian R1a looks to be less than 2000 years old. It is probably the haplogroup of the people Thor Heyerdahl was researching before his death.

        I admit the FTDNA MRCA estimates supports your theory of an Iron Age date for Finland I1a, but I question the current accuracy of those estimates.

        Hopefully further research, and more DNA results, will give us a clearer picture of Finland's prehistory.

        Steve
        I don't think Scandinavian R1a looks like it is less than 2,000 years. "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" estimates 4,000 years for R1a (and about 6,000 years for I1a and about 9,000 for R1b1c).

        "Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms" speculates that R1a1 was the first Ydna haplogroup in Scandinavia.


        The estimate from "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" is 2,500 years as well as 4,000 for P(XR1a) and 5,000 for B-R(XDE,N3,J,P). When I removed the likely Q from P and likely non-I1a from B-R, the ASD I came up with was almost exactly the same for R1b1c, I1a and R1a.

        My observation about Finland is just how similar I1a and N3 seem to be in terms of diversity. To my untrained eyes they seem to be almost exactly the same (as well as much lower than the usual diversity for Ydna haplogroups in the other Scandinavian countries). To me it would seem likely that N3 and I1a expanded in Finland at about the same time, but in different areas. I would love to know what the experts think.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
          I don't think Scandinavian R1a looks like it is less than 2,000 years. "Y-chromosome diversity in Sweden – A long-time perspective" estimates 4,000 years for R1a (and about 6,000 years for I1a and about 9,000 for R1b1c).

          "Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms" speculates that R1a1 was the first Ydna haplogroup in Scandinavia.


          The estimate from "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" is 2,500 years as well as 4,000 for P(XR1a) and 5,000 for B-R(XDE,N3,J,P). When I removed the likely Q from P and likely non-I1a from B-R, the ASD I came up with was almost exactly the same for R1b1c, I1a and R1a.

          My observation about Finland is just how similar I1a and N3 seem to be in terms of diversity. To my untrained eyes they seem to be almost exactly the same (as well as much lower than the usual diversity for Ydna haplogroups in the other Scandinavian countries). To me it would seem likely that N3 and I1a expanded in Finland at about the same time, but in different areas. I would love to know what the experts think.

          It would make sense then that N3 would have come in from the East or Southeast most likely and I1a came in from the West most likely from Scandinavia initially. Reading about this makes me want to find out which haplogroup my Torttila ancestors came from.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Eki
            Unfortunately the books on Finnish pre-history in English are scarce and somewhat outdated, but newer books in Finnish and articles talk about probable Scandinavian immigration to Finland in the Iron Age. Lappalainen is a geneticist, a young doctoral student, so she doesn't necessarily have that wide knowledge on archeology and history.

            Meteorologist Reijo Solantie has written about the climate change in the Bronze Age. He thinks the Corded Ware culture and subsequent cultures in Southwest Finland may have moved south when the climate got colder. The archaeological findings dated BC 500 to 0 are very scarce in Finland:

            http://www.sarks.fi/fa/faxxii.html

            Interestingly the all four members from the southwestern archipelago in the Finland DNA-project seem to be R1a1 or R1a.

            The article "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" by Dupuy thinks R1a might have come to Norway with the Corded Ware culture.
            Some interesting new (to me) information you have brought up, Eki. I will have to study them before I comment further on this topic.


            On a slightly different topic; I was looking at some of the new 67-marker results for the Finland Project. Three out of the four DYS385a,b=14,14, DYS439=11 results have 9 for DYS511, (instead of 10, like most I1a-N). Maybe it is a sister sub-clade to I1a-Bothnia?

            Steve

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by s trangsrud
              Some interesting new (to me) information you have brought up, Eki. I will have to study them before I comment further on this topic.


              On a slightly different topic; I was looking at some of the new 67-marker results for the Finland Project. Three out of the four DYS385a,b=14,14, DYS439=11 results have 9 for DYS511, (instead of 10, like most I1a-N). Maybe it is a sister sub-clade to I1a-Bothnia?

              Steve
              I noticed in YSEARCH two who had DYS439=10 like I1a-Bothnia but DYS511=10 like I1a-N. One of them was from Hordaland, Norway, and one was of unknown origin.

              Comment


              • #82
                I think it was this climate change that brought the notion of Fimbulwinter to Norse mythology. It probably made tribes in the north move south, which caused wars with the tribes that already lived there:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimbul_Winter

                In Norse mythology, Fimbulwinter (Old Norse Fimbulvetr) is the immediate prelude to the end of the world, Ragnarök. Fimbulwinter is three successive winters where snow comes in from all directions, without any intervening summer. During this time, there will be innumerable wars and brothers will kill brothers.

                The prefix 'fimbul' means "the great/big" so the correct interpretation of the word is "the great winter".[1]

                There have been several popular speculations about whether this particular piece of mythology has a connection to the climate change that occurred in the Nordic countries at the end of the Nordic Bronze Age, about 650 BC. Before this climate change, the Nordic countries were considerably warmer.[2]

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Eki
                  The genetic distance between you and me is 50/70 and between me and I1a-uN2 49/67. The Finland DNA-project estimates that our MRCA lived about 990 years ago, so I believe the MRCA of I1a-Bothnia and I1a-uN2 probably lived in the first millennium AD.
                  A GD of 20+/- doesn't sound like a match within the last 1,000 years to me (more like 1,500 – 3,000).

                  I think I1a-Bothnia certainly is older than 1500 years from what I've seen.


                  Originally posted by Eki
                  Meteorologist Reijo Solantie has written about the climate change in the Bronze Age. He thinks the Corded Ware culture and subsequent cultures in Southwest Finland may have moved south when the climate got colder. The archaeological findings dated BC 500 to 0 are very scarce in Finland.
                  500 BC to 0 AD was quite a "good" archaeological periode around where I live.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
                    500 BC to 0 AD was quite a "good" archaeological periode around where I live.
                    Even today, southern Norway is warmer than southern Finland. The Atlantic Ocean and the Gulf Stream are warming factors more in Norway than in Finland. The further east you go from Finland, the colder it gets at the same latitude:

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      I found an interesting map in Mårten Stenberger's book "Sweden". It shows the distribution of finds Roman imports from AD 50 to 400 in Sweden. Seems that the finds are mainly in the areas where I1a dominates. Could this mean that R1b wasn't yet there in the Roman Iron Age and they occupied a largely uninhabited area later? The book says:

                      Five regions are dominant: Västergötland, Östergötland, Öland, Gotland and the Mälar region. The two first-named have, together with Skåne, always been Sweden's richest agricultural provinces; but Öland and Gotland, which had the advantage of being islands, ran them close. The striking sparseness of finds of Roman imports from Skåne is difficult to explain. The wealth of the Mälar region is probably a consequence of the rich Bronze Age culture of the area, and its highly developed seafaring traditions. Some Roman objects have been found on the coast of southern Norrland, which together with other finds suggest that the area had once more been settled by people coming from the south, and integrated with the society of southern Sweden.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Also distribution of Iron Age hill-forts in Sweden may suggest that the southernmost Sweden was quite sparsely populated. At least coasts slightly more north seem to be more heavily fortified:

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          I thought about that type of migration and genetic mix for several months now. I am only up to five or six polymorphisms thou.

                          R1b DYS 390, 391, 392 and 393
                          Atlantic Modal: 24, 11, 13, 13
                          NW Irish: 25, 11, 14, 13
                          Scottish: 24, 10 13, 13
                          Anglo-Saxon: 23, 11, 13, 13
                          G2 al-Quraish 21, 10, 11, 15
                          E3b Levite 24, 10 (11), 11, 13
                          R1a 25, 10, 11, 13
                          DYS388 = 13
                          I1b2a 23, 10 (11), 11, 14 (15)
                          DYS388 =14, DYS19 = 14
                          I1a - Anglo-Saxon 22, 10, 11, 13
                          I1a-NORSE 23, 10, 11, 13

                          Originally posted by Eki
                          I found an interesting map in Mårten Stenberger's book "Sweden". It shows the distribution of finds Roman imports from AD 50 to 400 in Sweden. Seems that the finds are mainly in the areas where I1a dominates. Could this mean that R1b wasn't yet there in the Roman Iron Age and they occupied a largely uninhabited area later? The book says:



                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Stenberger's book says:

                            There is evidence that the coins on Öland were buried between 480-490, whilst on Bornholm they were deposited at the turn of the century and on Gotland soon after 550. Such a concentrated burial of treasure in the three islands during these 60 years is presumably due to its having been a period of much disturbance and armed conflict; other evidence, too, suggests that the islands were attacked at this time, though we do not know by whom. The widespread coin and bullion hoards indicate that the whole Baltic area, and even western Scandinavia, were in a state of great unrest, the period thus constituting an early parallel to the Viking Age.
                            and later:

                            The oldest objects found in such Gotland houses so far are from the earlier part of the Middle Iron Age , the latest confined to the earlier part of the Late Iron Age (sixth century), when the hoards were deposited and probably the strongholds built. Most of the houses excavated on Gotland had been burnt down, and the same is true of the Öland houses, which supports the view that the two Swedish islands in the Baltic, and Bornholm as well,were invaded. The buildings were laid waste, and after the attack the area cultivated was much reduced in size and to some extent shifted to different places.
                            Maybe the unrest in the 5th and 6th centuries were due to a new population arriving in the area (R1b?)?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Stenberger writes about Sweden around AD 500:
                              Eastern and western Sweden had by this time, and probably even earlier, begun to develop into separate cultures. The centers of these, Östergötland and Västergötland, were oriented naturally eastwards and westwards. Gotland formed a third region which was joined to Sweden long after the first two had united, probably not until the eleventh century. Another cultural province was formed by the coastal area of southern Norrland, round the estuaries of the rivers Ljungan and Indalsälven in Medelpad. This had strong links with Tröndelagen on the Norwegian west coast by way of a local culture round Storsjön in Jämtland, as well as connections southwards with Gotland.
                              So, Norrland, Tröndelagen and Gotland were connected. I would not be surprised if Finnish Ostrobothnia and Satakunta were parts of that "alliance". The sagas say that Norr, the "founder" of Norway, was a descendant of the king of Gotland, Kvenland and Finland. Norr left Kvenland believed to have been in what is now Finland and went to Norway probably through Norrland.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                There are the few inventors
                                There are a few more developers
                                There are the many more discoverers
                                And there are the many imitators

                                When I begin to look at this era, we often are just beginning to look at individuals. Maybe, the R1bs were being pushed by the Romans???? I have never thought about this before . . .

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