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Ydna in the Nordic countries.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by J Man
    It seems then that in Finland that this is the most likely scenario for settlement.

    Haplogroup N represents descendants or original stone age Uralic Comb-Ceramic tribes.

    Haplogroup I1a represents later Germanic Scandinavian arrivals from the Bronze or Iron ages. Or possybly even later with Swedish colonists.

    I am not sure about the other haplogroups in Finland. I think there is a very small amouny of R1a and R1b as well.
    Yes, R1b may have come with the Swedish colonists between 12th and 14th centuries. R1a may have been an earlier arrival.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Eki
      Yes, R1b may have come with the Swedish colonists between 12th and 14th centuries. R1a may have been an earlier arrival.

      It would be interesting to see a study done on the Finland-Swedes. I would suspect that most of them should be I1a, R1b or R1a. Maybe not though if they have mixed extensively with native Finns.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Eki
        What do the mainstream historians think about Norr and his sons? .
        I assume they view it as mere stories, but I am not sure.


        Originally posted by Eki
        One of Norr's sons is said to have been Raum the Old who ruled Raumariki near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that there's a big river called Rauma in Norway and a town called Rauma in Finnish Satakunta. I read somewhere that Raum the Old was so big and ugly that the word "raumr" became to mean a big and ugly person in Old Norse:
        http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h329.php
        Curiously the word for ugly in modern Finnish is "ruma".
        Raum in Raumariki means roaring, loud or noisy, I think. I assume it has the same root as the English verb 'to roar', and the place is called Raumariki because of the noisy river.

        Originally posted by Eki
        There was a marketplace called Kaupang near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that it's almost like the Finnish word for town "kaupunki". In old Norse the word "kaupa" meant to buy. In modern Finnish "kauppa" means a shop. In modern Norwegian the word for a town is "by", which is almost like the English word "buy". Funny coincidences, if they are coincidences.
        By comes from 'Bø','bu' or 'bo', which means 'to live', 'a place to live', or a settlement (a small farm). I think there is a relationship with the Norwegian verb 'byggja' (English 'to build').
        Kaupa means to buy like German 'kaufen' or Norwegian 'kjøpa'.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by J Man
          It would be interesting to see a study done on the Finland-Swedes. I would suspect that most of them should be I1a, R1b or R1a. Maybe not though if they have mixed extensively with native Finns.
          There is a study by Lappalainen et al:

          http://vetinari.sitesled.com/finns.pdf

          Interestingly the Swedish speaking Southern-Ostrobothnia (SSO) had less I1a than the Finnish speaking Southern-Ostrobothnia (SO) (36% vs 46%), less R1a1 (12% vs 19%) but more R1b (8% vs 3%) and N3 (40% vs 26%).

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
            I assume they view it as mere stories, but I am not sure.
            By comes from 'Bø','bu' or 'bo', which means 'to live', 'a place to live', or a settlement (a small farm). I think there is a relationship with the Norwegian verb 'byggja' (English 'to build').
            Kaupa means to buy like German 'kaufen' or Norwegian 'kjøpa'.
            The old Danelaw in eastern England is full of pure Norse place-names like Grimsby (Lincolnshire). The -by names have been used to chart Scandinavian settlement in the British Isles. In Norway the form is -bu, and this turns up in place-names in the Northern Isles (Orkney, Shetland), showing you where they got their Vikings from.

            Denmark and Sweden have towns ending in -købing or -köping, meaning a trading or market town, but these names are less common in Norway, where fishing and the timber trade were a more important form of economic life. In England, especially in the Cotswolds (south-west), the word appears as Chipping, as in Chipping Sodbury, Chipping Campden. This is from Old English, which was cognate with Old Norse. That part of England is currently under water after the worst flooding in living memory. The rescue services all over England have just had the greatest demand for their services since the Second World War.

            Harry

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Eki
              There is a study by Lappalainen et al:

              http://vetinari.sitesled.com/finns.pdf

              Interestingly the Swedish speaking Southern-Ostrobothnia (SSO) had less I1a than the Finnish speaking Southern-Ostrobothnia (SO) (36% vs 46%), less R1a1 (12% vs 19%) but more R1b (8% vs 3%) and N3 (40% vs 26%).

              That is very interesting. I1a must be pretty ancient in parts of Finland then. I am thinking Nordic Bronze and Iron age peoples then. My mummu's (grandmother) father was from Ikaalinen and he was in haplogroup N. Her mother's family were from Hausjarvi and Karinkoski (near Isojoki).

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              • #67
                I have a theory that R1b invaders from Denmark to Sweden caused a domino effect that made the Theustes (I1a) Jordanes talks about to move from Tjust in Sweden to Tavastia in Finland and later Norr to move over to the Trondheim area in Norway and his son Raum the Old to rule the Oslo region in Norway:



                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza
                http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tjust
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavasti...al_province%29
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvenland
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romerike
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raum_the_Old

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                • #68
                  Anyone know the frequencies of the different Y-haplogroups in Hame Finland?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Eki
                    I have a theory that R1b invaders from Denmark to Sweden caused a domino effect that made the Theustes (I1a) Jordanes
                    Who are these Theustes Jordanes? Where did they come from? What makes you think they belonged to haplogrroup I1a?

                    How do you know that the invaders from Denmark was R1b?


                    Sorry for all the questions, but it would be intesting to know.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Wena
                      Who are these Theustes Jordanes? Where did they come from? What makes you think they belonged to haplogrroup I1a?

                      How do you know that the invaders from Denmark was R1b?


                      Sorry for all the questions, but it would be intesting to know.
                      It's Theustes. Roman historian Jordanes wrote about them in his work Getica in AD 551. He said they were a Gothic tribe. Theustes have been placed in present day Tjust in the Swedish province Småland opposite to the island Öland:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza



                      What makes you think they belonged to haplogrroup I1a?
                      Because they lived near Gotland, which has the highest percentage of I1a in Sweden together with Värmland.

                      How do you know that the invaders from Denmark was R1b?
                      I don't know, I assume. I assume because according to the R1b map, a "bulge" of R1b seems to come from Denmark to Tjust in southeastern Sweden.
                      Last edited by Eki; 14 September 2007, 06:24 AM.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by J Man
                        That is very interesting. I1a must be pretty ancient in parts of Finland then. I am thinking Nordic Bronze and Iron age peoples then. My mummu's (grandmother) father was from Ikaalinen and he was in haplogroup N. Her mother's family were from Hausjarvi and Karinkoski (near Isojoki).
                        Currently on the Finland Project's results spreadsheet, 56 out of 71 I1a results appear to be of the I1a-Bothnia variety, which is found almost exclusively in Finland or those of Finnish ancestry. This would suggest this group was decended from a founding population a long, long time ago.

                        My theory is they descend from the Battle Ax/Cord-Ceramic people who came to South-Western Finland, probably from Sweden, around 1800-1600 B.C. They were "long-skull", which contrasts with the earlier, more Eastern looking Comb-Ceramic culture. The Battle ax culture was in Sweden and Norway starting around 2800 B.C.

                        This wikipedia article discusses the Battle Ax culture, though not much about it in Finland:
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by s trangsrud
                          Currently on the Finland Project's results spreadsheet, 56 out of 71 I1a results appear to be of the I1a-Bothnia variety, which is found almost exclusively in Finland or those of Finnish ancestry. This would suggest this group was decended from a founding population a long, long time ago.

                          My theory is they descend from the Battle Ax/Cord-Ceramic people who came to South-Western Finland, probably from Sweden, around 1800-1600 B.C. They were "long-skull", which contrasts with the earlier, more Eastern looking Comb-Ceramic culture. The Battle ax culture was in Sweden and Norway starting around 2800 B.C.

                          This wikipedia article discusses the Battle Ax culture, though not much about it in Finland:
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture
                          “Long-skull” - excuse me, but are you joking?
                          In every population there are variation of skull shapes.

                          Where do you know these old people were “long skulls” as you call them? And who do you know these earlier ones where “short-skulls”? You hopefully know about other sources than Wikipedia.

                          It sounds weird that the earliest ones of the Battle Ax culture should be more “eastern looking” if we trust real science such as the new studies in population genetics. All people of the Nordic countries seems to have migrated from Western Europe after the Last Ice Age, that includes mtDNA U5b and V and yDNA I1 or I1a.

                          The first known and documented Asian (you probably mean Asian with eastern) came to the Nordic areas in the Bronze Age. I am referring to Ingman and Gyllensten (2007), they found mtDNA Z that had mutated in the southern Swedish Saami areas about 2700 years ago. This migration must have been very small since this haplogroup mainly is concentrated in the southern Saami areas still today with about 10% and 7% in the Finish Saami and nowhere else. I have not checked for the rest of Finland and Sweden though.

                          Then there have been immigrations of Kvens from the east from about 1500 AD, but most Kvens settled in Finland after 1600 according to a Finnish immigration researcher. It is scientific supported that the Kvens that came to the Nordic areas have yDNA haplogroup N and that they at least came from two different founder populations, one in northern China or Baikal and the other one from southern Siberia/ Eastern Europe. It is known that they dominate the general male gene pool in Finland at the present.

                          Both of these migrating Asian cultures to the Nordic areas are very much later than the Battle Ax culture starting 2800 BC (about 4800 years ago).


                          Seriously, you need to reconsider your theory.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by s trangsrud
                            Currently on the Finland Project's results spreadsheet, 56 out of 71 I1a results appear to be of the I1a-Bothnia variety, which is found almost exclusively in Finland or those of Finnish ancestry. This would suggest this group was decended from a founding population a long, long time ago.

                            My theory is they descend from the Battle Ax/Cord-Ceramic people who came to South-Western Finland, probably from Sweden, around 1800-1600 B.C. They were "long-skull", which contrasts with the earlier, more Eastern looking Comb-Ceramic culture. The Battle ax culture was in Sweden and Norway starting around 2800 B.C.

                            This wikipedia article discusses the Battle Ax culture, though not much about it in Finland:
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture
                            On the analysis page of the Finland DNA-project, the longest TMRCA estimate between I1a-Bothnia members is 1770 years, that would be about the Roman Iron Age, it would also suit the Finnish Iron-Age archeology, which seems to be heavily influenced by Scandinavia in western Finland. Distribution of R1a in Europe fits better the distribution of the Corded Ware culture.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by s trangsrud
                              Currently on the Finland Project's results spreadsheet, 56 out of 71 I1a results appear to be of the I1a-Bothnia variety, which is found almost exclusively in Finland or those of Finnish ancestry. This would suggest this group was decended from a founding population a long, long time ago.
                              The genetic distance between you and me is 50/70 and between me and I1a-uN2 49/67. The Finland DNA-project estimates that our MRCA lived about 990 years ago, so I believe the MRCA of I1a-Bothnia and I1a-uN2 probably lived in the first millennium AD.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Wena
                                “Long-skull” - excuse me, but are you joking?
                                In every population there are variation of skull shapes.

                                Where do you know these old people were “long skulls” as you call them? And who do you know these earlier ones where “short-skulls”? You hopefully know about other sources than Wikipedia.

                                It sounds weird that the earliest ones of the Battle Ax culture should be more “eastern looking” if we trust real science such as the new studies in population genetics. All people of the Nordic countries seems to have migrated from Western Europe after the Last Ice Age, that includes mtDNA U5b and V and yDNA I1 or I1a.

                                The first known and documented Asian (you probably mean Asian with eastern) came to the Nordic areas in the Bronze Age. I am referring to Ingman and Gyllensten (2007), they found mtDNA Z that had mutated in the southern Swedish Saami areas about 2700 years ago. This migration must have been very small since this haplogroup mainly is concentrated in the southern Saami areas still today with about 10% and 7% in the Finish Saami and nowhere else. I have not checked for the rest of Finland and Sweden though.

                                Then there have been immigrations of Kvens from the east from about 1500 AD, but most Kvens settled in Finland after 1600 according to a Finnish immigration researcher. It is scientific supported that the Kvens that came to the Nordic areas have yDNA haplogroup N and that they at least came from two different founder populations, one in northern China or Baikal and the other one from southern Siberia/ Eastern Europe. It is known that they dominate the general male gene pool in Finland at the present.

                                Both of these migrating Asian cultures to the Nordic areas are very much later than the Battle Ax culture starting 2800 BC (about 4800 years ago).


                                Seriously, you need to reconsider your theory.
                                Wena, I think you are misinterpreting/'reading things into' my post that I did not intend.

                                The Battle Ax Culture in Finland information I listed was from the book 'A HISTORY OF FINLAND Revised Edition 1974 by Jutikkala & Pirinen, translated by Sjoblom', pages 4-6. The Wikipedia link I gave was just for general info on the Battle Ax Culture.

                                The book said the earlier people's skull shape was more typical of Baltic/Eastern Europeans and "long skull" was typical of Germanic/Northern Europeans. So the 'Eastern' meant as in Eastern European, not as in Asian. I, myself, have no knowledge nor opinion, on the validity of skull shape analysis.

                                Anyhow, the skull shape is not issue of my post, just extra evidence. And I was not implying anything about the earliest people in Finland. What I was pointing out was that a new culture appeared in South-Western Finland in 1800-1600 B.C., that had a parallel culture in Sweden and Norway. South-Western Finland is where most of its I1a is found. Maybe it is just a coincidence?

                                Steve

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