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Ydna in the Nordic countries.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by vageskar
    The abstract of "heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" says: "Within Norway, geographical substructuring was observed between regions and counties. The substructuring reflects to some extent the European Y-chromosome gradients, with higher frequency of P*(xR1a) in the south-west and of R1a in the east. Heterogeneity in major founder groups, geographical isolation, severe epidemics, historical trading links and population movements may have led to population stratification and have most probably contributed to the observed regional differences in distribution of haplotypes within two of the major haplogroups."

    Higher frequencies of R1a in the east seems to contradict the attached maps and the whole basis for this discussion!

    It would be interesting to read the article "heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" in full, does anybody know where I can? Searches on the Google only leads me to sites which needs subscription.
    I don't think there is any discrepancy here. The maps I made included data from all regions in the Nordic region, not just Norway. There is clearly more R1a in Norway than any other neighbouring country (not including the old Norse colony the Faeroe Islands). I made the same type of map from the exact same modifications in the original map using only the Norwegian data (see attached pdf). As you can see there R1a is indeed slightly more common the further east in Norway you go. Although the North/South divide is as far as I can see far more important. I think the "eastern tendency" of R1a is only due to the fact the the more northern regions in Norway is futher east than the southern reigons (this also indicated by the map).

    If anyone wish a copy of the data I used to make the map, please send a private message.
    Attached Files

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
      I don't think there is any discrepancy here. The maps I made included data from all regions in the Nordic region, not just Norway. There is clearly more R1a in Norway than any other neighbouring country (not including the old Norse colony the Faeroe Islands). I made the same type of map from the exact same modifications in the original map using only the Norwegian data (see attached pdf). As you can see there R1a is indeed slightly more common the further east in Norway you go. Although the North/South divide is as far as I can see far more important. I think the "eastern tendency" of R1a is only due to the fact the the more northern regions in Norway is futher east than the southern reigons (this also indicated by the map).

      If anyone wish a copy of the data I used to make the map, please send a private message.
      Trondheim area seems to be particularly heavy on R1a, while Oslo region is heavy on I1a. I'm reading Else Roesdahl's book "The Vikings". It says that Harald Fairhair was from Vestfold near Oslo and belonged to the Yngling dynasty, which is thought to have been originally from Swedish Uppsala, also heavy on I1a. However, I have understood that Trondheim (Nidaros) was the capital of Norway during the Viking times. Was there perhaps a line of kings other than the Ynglings, that might have been R1a? I think there was at least a civil war between the Oslo and Trondheim regions in the 12th and 13th century.
      Last edited by Eki; 15 July 2007, 04:58 PM.

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      • #48
        Here's a map of the petty kingdoms of Norway around AD 820:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:N...ms_ca._820.png

        The Hålogaland kingdom would fit the distribution of R1a the best and the petty kingdoms in the south would fit I1a.

        The civil war era had opportunities for the bloodline of the kings to change. First Harald Gille came from Ireland and claimed to be a son of Magnus Barefoot, but there was no proof that he actually was. Later Gille's sons ruled Norway:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_era_in_Norway
        Last edited by Eki; 16 July 2007, 02:44 AM.

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        • #49
          Håkon Grjotgardsson from Hålogaland ruled the petty kingdom of Trøndelag in the 9th century. Harald Fairhair married his daughter:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A5kon_Grjotgardsson

          Håkon Grjotgardsson (838-900) (Old Norse: Hákon Grjótgarðsson), was the first Earl of Lade (Hlaðajarl), Norway. He descended from Hålogaland, and sought to extend his realm by moving southwards. He became ruler of the petty kingdom of Trøndelag when he settled at Lade, although it is not fully known to which extent he had full control over this well organized area.

          He was father of Sigurd Håkonsson.

          Harald Fairhair married his daughter Åsa, and this obviously contributed to Harald's effort to unite all kingdoms of Norway. After having fought successfully with Harald in this effort, Håkon was also made earl of Sunnfjord, Nordfjord and Sogn. He lost his life in a battle with Atle Mjove, the previous earl of Sogn.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Eki
            Trondheim area seems to be particularly heavy on R1a, while Oslo region is heavy on I1a. I'm reading Else Roesdahl's book "The Vikings". It says that Harald Fairhair was from Vestfold near Oslo and belonged to the Yngling dynasty, which is thought to have been originally from Swedish Uppsala, also heavy on I1a. However, I have understood that Trondheim (Nidaros) was the capital of Norway during the Viking times. Was there perhaps a line of kings other than the Ynglings, that might have been R1a? I think there was at least a civil war between the Oslo and Trondheim regions in the 12th and 13th century.
            It is my understanding that most (or rather all) historians accept Harald Hairfair as a real historical person. They also agree that his center of power was in the South-West of Norway (to be more accurate: Avaldsnes according to Snorre, Rennesøy is mentioned in some of the kvads). Most mainstream historians think that the Norway he ruled comprised of little more than Rogaland + Hordaland as well as possible some other parts of Norway. It is generally accepted that the Easternpart of Norway (Vika) was under Danish overlordship.

            I think the roots of Harald is unclear. Some people think he was a localborn chieftain, however one passage in the Haraldkvad (one of the main sources used by Snorre) could be interpreded in such a way that he did indeed come from the east as Snorre claim. I think guessing his Haplogroup or haplotype is impossible. If he came from the East, I would suppose I1a would be the most likely candidate. If he was local, then R1b.

            My belief is that the later dynasties were not direct descendants of the Hairfair-line. I think this is also genrally accepted by mainstream historians (although I am not sure about this point). Most (all mainstream) also dispute the Yngling-ætt claim, as far as I can tell.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
              It is my understanding that most (or rather all) historians accept Harald Hairfair as a real historical person. They also agree that his center of power was in the South-West of Norway (to be more accurate: Avaldsnes according to Snorre, Rennesøy is mentioned in some of the kvads). Most mainstream historians think that the Norway he ruled comprised of little more than Rogaland + Hordaland as well as possible some other parts of Norway. It is generally accepted that the Easternpart of Norway (Vika) was under Danish overlordship.

              I think the roots of Harald is unclear. Some people think he was a localborn chieftain, however one passage in the Haraldkvad (one of the main sources used by Snorre) could be interpreded in such a way that he did indeed come from the east as Snorre claim. I think guessing his Haplogroup or haplotype is impossible. If he came from the East, I would suppose I1a would be the most likely candidate. If he was local, then R1b.

              My belief is that the later dynasties were not direct descendants of the Hairfair-line. I think this is also genrally accepted by mainstream historians (although I am not sure about this point). Most (all mainstream) also dispute the Yngling-ætt claim, as far as I can tell.
              What do the mainstream historians think about Norr and his sons? One of Norr's sons is said to have been Raum the Old who ruled Raumariki near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that there's a big river called Rauma in Norway and a town called Rauma in Finnish Satakunta. I read somewhere that Raum the Old was so big and ugly that the word "raumr" became to mean a big and ugly person in Old Norse:

              http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h329.php

              raumr, m. big and ugly þerson.
              Curiously the word for ugly in modern Finnish is "ruma".

              There was a marketplace called Kaupang near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that it's almost like the Finnish word for town "kaupunki". In old Norse the word "kaupa" meant to buy. In modern Finnish "kauppa" means a shop. In modern Norwegian the word for a town is "by", which is almost like the English word "buy". Funny coincidences, if they are coincidences.
              Last edited by Eki; 20 July 2007, 04:39 AM.

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              • #52
                I thought "ruma" people had a big nose, hee hee. The one I knew was friendly and smart. Rumen is also the first stomach of ruminating animals, lying next to the reticulum.

                Is it true rum can make people uglier?

                Originally posted by Eki
                What do the mainstream historians think about Norr and his sons? One of Norr's sons is said to have been Raum the Old who ruled Raumariki near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that there's a big river called Rauma in Norway and a town called Rauma in Finnish Satakunta. I read somewhere that Raum the Old was so big and ugly that the word "raumr" became to mean a big and ugly person in Old Norse:

                http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h329.php



                Curiously the word for ugly in modern Finnish is "ruma".

                There was a marketplace called Kaupang near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that it's almost like the Finnish word for town "kaupunki". In old Norse the word "kaupa" meant to buy. In modern Finnish "kauppa" means a shop. In modern Norwegian the word for a town is "by", which is almost like the English word "buy". Funny coincidences, if they are coincidences.
                Last edited by GregKiroKHR1bL1; 21 July 2007, 07:35 AM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by GregKiroKHR1bL1
                  Is it true rum can make people uglier?
                  Actually it can make the girls a lot prettier if you drink enough of it.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Eki
                    What do the mainstream historians think about Norr and his sons? One of Norr's sons is said to have been Raum the Old who ruled Raumariki near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that there's a big river called Rauma in Norway and a town called Rauma in Finnish Satakunta. I read somewhere that Raum the Old was so big and ugly that the word "raumr" became to mean a big and ugly person in Old Norse:

                    http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h329.php



                    Curiously the word for ugly in modern Finnish is "ruma".

                    There was a marketplace called Kaupang near present day Oslo. I think it's interesting that it's almost like the Finnish word for town "kaupunki". In old Norse the word "kaupa" meant to buy. In modern Finnish "kauppa" means a shop. In modern Norwegian the word for a town is "by", which is almost like the English word "buy". Funny coincidences, if they are coincidences.
                    In dutch, the word "kaupa" is "kopen." In german, the same word is "kaufen." Also the norwegian "raum" is the same or similar to the dutch "ruim" and german "raum" for space. So no coincidences, just words with an origin in proto-germanic from perhaps the Jastorf culture.

                    John

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Johnserrat
                      In dutch, the word "kaupa" is "kopen." In german, the same word is "kaufen." Also the norwegian "raum" is the same or similar to the dutch "ruim" and german "raum" for space. So no coincidences, just words with an origin in proto-germanic from perhaps the Jastorf culture.

                      John
                      I think it might be possible that it was during the Jastorf culture when I1a (Nordic Bronze Age culture) and R1b (Halstatt culture) met:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

                      The culture evolved out of the Nordic (or Northern) Bronze Age, through influence from the Halstatt culture further south.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Eki
                        I think it might be possible that it was during the Jastorf culture when I1a (Nordic Bronze Age culture) and R1b (Halstatt culture) met:

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

                        And at this time what culture do you think the haplogroup N Finns would have been a part of? My paternal grandmother's father's lineage is N from Finland.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by J Man
                          And at this time what culture do you think the haplogroup N Finns would have been a part of? My paternal grandmother's father's lineage is N from Finland.
                          I don't know. N hasn't much spread to southwestern Scandinavia, but maybe Roman Iron Age:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Iron_Age

                          I think haplogroup N spread to Finland with the Pit-comb ware culture in the late stone age:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit-Comb_Ware_culture

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Eki
                            I don't know. N hasn't much spread to southwestern Scandinavia, but maybe Roman Iron Age:

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Iron_Age

                            I think haplogroup N spread to Finland with the Pit-comb ware culture in the late stone age:

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit-Comb_Ware_culture

                            Hmmm cool stuff. Since haplogroup N is so large in Finland it seems that all Finns even ones who are in other haplogroups like I1a have haplogroup N ancestors as well.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by J Man
                              Hmmm cool stuff. Since haplogroup N is so large in Finland it seems that all Finns even ones who are in other haplogroups like I1a have haplogroup N ancestors as well.
                              That's more than likely.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                It seems then that in Finland that this is the most likely scenario for settlement.

                                Haplogroup N represents descendants or original stone age Uralic Comb-Ceramic tribes.

                                Haplogroup I1a represents later Germanic Scandinavian arrivals from the Bronze or Iron ages. Or possybly even later with Swedish colonists.

                                I am not sure about the other haplogroups in Finland. I think there is a very small amouny of R1a and R1b as well.

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