Ydna in the Nordic countries.

[Paul_Johnsen]

There has been significant Turkish migration to Germany which borders Denmark but not the other Scandinavian countries. This is one of the more likely explanations of the pattern of J2 in Scandinavia beside the Ashkenazi possibility. Does anyone know the respective Greek and Italian immigrant populations in the various Scandinavian countries. Other explanations for J2, e.g. commerce of the Rus in the Black Sea area, do not account for the higher rates in Denmark.

J2 in Denmark can hardly be attributed to jews. I think the maximum number of jews in Denmark was about 10,000, so not nearly enough to explain the aparent high frequency of J2 in the country.

Recent immigration (turks etc) would obviously not be a factor in these types of surveys. In any case there doesn't seem to be much of the other "neolithic" y-haplogroups in Denmark (my guess is that G and E3b make up about 1% +/- I think Sweden, Finland and Norway has basically an equal amount of these group as Denmark).

[josh w.]

Sorry, the source for the Danish estimates was not fully described. It was not clear that long term residency in Denmark was required of subjects.
Oppenheimer has suggested that British Y dna J2 came from Germanic speaking northern Europe, i.e. south of the Baltic. (I am not sure how it got there, perhaps up the Danube from the Black Sea). Perhaps this was the source of the Danish J2.

[josh w.]

A recent study by Kayser et. al. in "Human Genetics" compared German and Polish haplogroups. Although J2 is not usually associated with Germany, Kayser found higher rates of J2 there. Besides a Danubian path, Roman- German contact could have brought J2 to that region.

[J Man]

A recent study by Kayser et. al. in "Human Genetics" compared German and Polish haplogroups. Although J2 is not usually associated with Germany, Kayser found higher rates of J2 there. Besides a Danubian path, Roman- German contact could have brought J2 to that region.

To me it makes more sense that the Romans would have brought the majority of J2 to both Germany and Britain. Especially in Britain it is found in areas that were known as being Roman settlements and forts.

[J Man]

My guess would be that about 1 in 20 danish men are J2.

So percentage wise what would you say that is?

[josh w.]

I got the Kayser reference from a Dienkenes blog. He also noted that the Czech Republic was similar to Germany in regard to J2. Gradual neolithic migration to the northwest?

[josh w.]

A few clarifications and then I will shut up.
Oppenheimer pointed to a J2 migration to England via the Low Countries. This is why I used the phrase "Germanic speaking" rather than "German speaking". Oppenheimer did not seem to be aware of the research pointing to J2 in Germany.

The J2 in Denmark did not appear to be accompanied by it's neolithic partner E3b. Perhaps the explanation involves the subclades of J2. Cruciani's recent paper suggests that E3b migrated with J2b, one of the two major J2 subcldes. If the other subclade J2a is present in Denmark, this might explain the lower frequency of E3b.

[ylgitn]

A few clarifications and then I will shut up.
Oppenheimer pointed to a J2 migration to England via the Low Countries. This is why I used the phrase "Germanic speaking" rather than "German speaking". Oppenheimer did not seem to be aware of the research pointing to J2 in Germany.

The J2 in Denmark did not appear to be accompanied by it's neolithic partner E3b. Perhaps the explanation involves the subclades of J2. Cruciani's recent paper suggests that E3b migrated with J2b, one of the two major J2 subcldes. If the other subclade J2a is present in Denmark, this might explain the lower frequency of E3b.

When did Oppenheimer say he thought the J2 migration from the Low Countries to England occurred?

[ylgitn]

So percentage wise what would you say that is?

By my math it's 5%...

[J Man]

By my math it's 5%...

Thanks ylgitn.

[josh w.]

Ylgitn, Oppenheimer saw the J2 migration as part of the neolithic expansion of J2. In his view J2 and E3b first migrated to the Mediterranian from the Near East. After reaching western Spain, the path went along the Atlantic Coast to the north coast of France. At this point the J2 path split in two, with one branch going to the west coast of Britain and the other branch going through the Low Countries and eventually to the east coast of Britain. In other words, the migration took place thousands of years ago.
I mentioned the Low Countries as a possible explanation of how the J2 might have gotten to Germany, although a Danubian neolithic pathway makes at least as much sense. As far as Germany and Denmark go, there is little sign of a J2 path from northeastern Europe since the northern Slavic, Baltic and eastern Scandinavian countries are all low in J2 except for Jews who were moving in the opposite direction.

[ylgitn]

Interesting. Thanks, Josh. Does Oppenheimer describe any differences in the SNPs or STRs for the two separate migrations of J2 to Britain?

[josh w.]

I don't recall Oppenheimer being more specific

[vageskar]

R1a higher frequency in the east Norway

The abstract of "heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" says: "Within Norway, geographical substructuring was observed between regions and counties. The substructuring reflects to some extent the European Y-chromosome gradients, with higher frequency of P*(xR1a) in the south-west and of R1a in the east. Heterogeneity in major founder groups, geographical isolation, severe epidemics, historical trading links and population movements may have led to population stratification and have most probably contributed to the observed regional differences in distribution of haplotypes within two of the major haplogroups."

Higher frequencies of R1a in the east seems to contradict the attached maps and the whole basis for this discussion!

It would be interesting to read the article "heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" in full, does anybody know where I can? Searches on the Google only leads me to sites which needs subscription.

[Svein Davidsen]

Geographical_heterogeneity_of_Y_chromosomal ...etc

Hei Vageskar,
You will find a link to this, and many other interesting article, on the FTDNA N Y-DNA group site.
The direct link is

http://www.geocities.com/grpadm/Dupuy_2005_Geographical_heterogeneity_of_Y_chromosomal_lineages_in_Norway_FSI.pdf

Enjoy!