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Ydna in the Nordic countries.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Eki
    There's clearly a passage between Norway and Sweden near Trondheim:
    Hegra Fortress built in Stjørdal commune in 1907-1910 was built primarly to defend Trondheim/Trøndelag area from swedish invasion from the east, most of its field of fire was eastwards.

    http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegra_festning

    Noaide

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Eki
      There seems to be a hot spot of I1a in Lapland but not that much I1a in Finland Proper (Southwestern Finland). This Wikipedia-article about Vanlandi, one of Fornjot's descendants, says that in Old Norse Finnland meant Lapland.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanlandi
      "Old Norse" is probably a term that fit well the Saami males before the Kvens arrived with N3 to the northern areas of Scandinavia.

      In a historical perspective it is very interesting to differentiate between the Saami before and after the massive Kven immigrations from about 1500eds in Finland and Sweden and from 1700, but mainly 1800eds in Norway. The present Saami men in Finland and Sweden are dominated by Kven yDNA N3 (that is of Asian origin, refers to Rootsi et.al. 2006 and Dupuy et.al. 2005).

      I guess the Kven brought with them the genes that have caused and still causes confusion of where the Saami came from and when they came, this have been a hot-potato here in the Nordic countries particularly from 1900eds, in spite of the well registered (e.g. church archives, censuses and historical reports) and the commonly known massive Kven immigrations to these areas. Instead of studying the facts in archives they have robbed Saami graves, measured skulls and bones, and the racism and oppression of the Saami have been wide-ranging. In 2005 the first two books in Saami history was published here in Norway, isn’t that amazing when the genes show that the same people have been around here since the last ice age.

      I1a is probably as old here as the mtDNA U5b and V, could R1 be the other old male haplogroup here? I do not know enough about it to have an opinion, but R1a also seems probable from the maps added in this tread.

      This week I found some old unique photos (mainly from end of 1800eds and beginning of 1900eds) published by the National Library in Norway, and most photos are of Norwegian Saami. The Saami is not a race, but a culture and from what genetic research teaches us it is a very old culture where some particular markers have been carried in the deep structures for thousands of years. The Saami were isolated for a long period.

      It is the first time I see so many such old photos (prior to the immigration of our Kven ancestors to Norway) and in my mind there is no doubt that most people in the pictures are old Europeans. They have adapted to the cold during the colder periods in Europe and in the cold climate they live and are therefore not very tall (tallness must come from southern people?).

      If these males are I1, I1a, R1 (a or b) or another group cannot be judged by looks, but one is always tempted to guess.

      Here are the URL’s and look closely at their faces, these men are not wannabe tough ones, but are:


      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (1906 nord)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Kautokeino 1883)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Lyngen 1927)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (nord Saami 1911)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Kautokeino 1928)


      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Finnmark 1890)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Kautokeino 1883)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (man 1916 nord)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (1909 nord)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Nord Saami 1906)


      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Family 1911)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Saami 1916)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Saami 1906)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Saami girls 1890)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Man 1907)


      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Saami Man 1907)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (man&deer 1907)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (sjøsamer)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Swedish 1916)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Finnmark 1925)


      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Nordland 1934)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (1890 Lyngen)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Nord family 1890)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 Tromsø 1890)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Swedish Saami?)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Finnmark 1890)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Girls Kautokeino 1883)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Kautokeino 1883)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (1905 nord)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (1906 nord)

      http://www.nb.no/cgi-bin/galnor/gn_s...&skjema=2&fm=4 (Nordland 1959)


      I do hope that you too learned something new.

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks Wena
        The photos are wonderful. What are the names of the two books you mentioned?
        Thanks, mari

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by mari
          Thanks Wena
          The photos are wonderful. What are the names of the two books you mentioned?
          Thanks, mari
          These are two research articles and you can read about them in this URL from a previous ftDNA debate:

          http://www.ftdna.com/forum/showthrea...4&page=2&pp=10

          I have the Rootsi et.al. 2006 article but have not found it online :

          "A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from Southeast Asia towards Europe."

          Rootsi S, Zhivotovsky LA, Baldovic M, Kayser M, Kutuev IA, Khusainova R,
          Bermisheva MA, Gubina M, Fedorova SA, Ilumae AM, Khusnutdinova EK, Voevoda MI, Osipova LP, Stoneking M, Lin AA, Ferak V, Parik J, Kivisild T, Underhill PA, Villems R.
          European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 6 December 2006; doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201748.

          http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...8C5CA61FBA3D36


          The Dupuy et.al 2005 article can be read in the following URL:
          "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal
          lineages in Norway" by Berit Myhre Dupuy, Margurethe Stenersen, Tim T. Lu, Bjørnar Olaisen


          http://www.geocities.com/grpadm/Dupu...Norway_FSI.pdf

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Eki
            That's probably because winter weather isn't usually as severe in southern Scandinavia than in central Scandinavia.

            There's clearly a passage between Norway and Sweden near Trondheim:

            http://worldatlas.com/webimage/count...or/nocolor.htm

            It is obviously possible to move from Trøndelag to Sweden and vice versa. However this is not an easy way to travel. It is highly unlikely that thousands of people migrated from Russia to Norway going through Finland leaving little traces (the ridge is just as likely to be the result of the lack of observations in that area ref Lappalainen 2006 which I used to generate the map).

            This route would be roughly the same as going from the western part of present Ukraine to the Eastern part of present day France. It is important to remember the combined size of Norway, Sweden and Finland is roughly the same as the combined size of Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Holland, Italy and Poland put together.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Wena
              "Old Norse" is probably a term that fit well the Saami males before the Kvens arrived with N3 to the northern areas of Scandinavia.
              Yes, Kalevi Wiik has a theory that the current Saami descend from the "northern Saami" from Norway and the "southern Saami" from Finland who mixed about 7000 years ago in Northern Fennoscandia. I think that sounds plausible.

              Comment


              • #22
                Just curious as to how Y-Hg J ended up in Scandinavia. Is this due to modern immigration? if so, from what countries? What's the proportion of J1 vs J2?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by vinnie
                  Just curious as to how Y-Hg J ended up in Scandinavia. Is this due to modern immigration? if so, from what countries? What's the proportion of J1 vs J2?
                  J seems to be found in high frequency among Danes (including parts of Sweden that was until recently Danish), and is rare in Norway and Finland. I don't have any explanation for this, but the frequency of Danish J2 seems to be almost the same as the frequency of Danish R1a1.

                  I would suppose "Nordic" J is mostly J2.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
                    J seems to be found in high frequency among Danes (including parts of Sweden that was until recently Danish), and is rare in Norway and Finland. I don't have any explanation for this, but the frequency of Danish J2 seems to be almost the same as the frequency of Danish R1a1.

                    I would suppose "Nordic" J is mostly J2.
                    I think J2 is common among the Jews. The first Jews didn't arrive Sweden until the 18th century and Finland in the 19th century. Danes had Jews already in the 17th century:

                    http://www.jewishgen.org/Scandinavia/history.htm

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      That's what I was thinking, Eki. But I know that all of the European countries are also experiencing a lot of immigration from the Muslim/Arab world. Do you happen to know if it's mostly J1 or J2?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        vinnie:

                        in Turkey (and Kurdistan etc.), J2 is far more prevalent than J1; but there are many other haplogroups (including R1b). However, most immigrants nowadays are probably from N Africa, so there's probably more E3b than J. Of the J's, N Africa is more J1 than J2.

                        cacio

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          There has been significant Turkish migration to Germany which borders Denmark but not the other Scandinavian countries. This is one of the more likely explanations of the pattern of J2 in Scandinavia beside the Ashkenazi possibility. Does anyone know the respective Greek and Italian immigrant populations in the various Scandinavian countries. Other explanations for J2, e.g. commerce of the Rus in the Black Sea area, do not account for the higher rates in Denmark.
                          Last edited by josh w.; 7 June 2007, 03:04 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Eki
                            On the other hand, I think there could have been corridor through Finland and Sweden to Central Norway. It may have gone through the hot spot in Southern Ostrobothnia in Finland as illustrated in the picture below. Maybe there is so much R1a especially in Norway because they hit the Atlantic Ocean and couldn't get further.
                            There's a mysterious Iron Age burial site in Southern Ostrobothnia. The people buried in it didn't resemble Finns, Scandinavians or Saami but people in Central Russia. There's now a lot of R1a in Central Russia. Maybe they explain the "yellow spot" of R1a in Southern Ostrobothnia:

                            http://sydaby.eget.net/gen/kyro.htm

                            We have knowledge of the racial characteristics of the ancient Kyro people because of the discovery of about 100 skeletons that were found in the Levähuhta springs in Storkyro and in Keldomäki in Vörå. How the dead ended up in the springs is unclear, but archaeologists think it probably was a normal burial site.

                            The skeletons of the ancient Kyro people were small young people, thought to be Lapps. Their skulls were long and narrow, which is a deviation from the form of the Lapps’ heads and their physical structure separates them from the larger build of the Finns and Scandinavians.

                            One who later researched the skeletons of the ancient Kyro people is Tarja Formisto who received a Doctor’s degree at the University of Stockholm in 1993. She completed her research that compares her own results with information of different people who lived within a radius of 100 kilometers. The results showed that the ancient Kyro people greatly resembled the people who lived in central Russia, around the area of the rivers Volga and Oka. They were of the Fatjanovo culture from the Bronze Age.

                            The linguists Jorma Koivulehto and Asko Parpola, together with archaeologist Christian Carpelan, found that during the Bronze Age people from the Fatjanovo culture moved to the interior of eastern Finland — a people who talked the Finno-Ugric language, but used many words that belonged to the Aryan language group of the Indo-European language. It is thought that some of these Aryans moved, perhaps as a [blow] to their leadership. It is possible that during the Bronze Age a part of this folk group came to southern Österbotten and lived there in the Iron Age without associating much with other people. This should solve the riddle of the origin of the ancient Kyro people. As far as I know, genealogists do not think so.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
                              J seems to be found in high frequency among Danes (including parts of Sweden that was until recently Danish), and is rare in Norway and Finland. I don't have any explanation for this, but the frequency of Danish J2 seems to be almost the same as the frequency of Danish R1a1.

                              I would suppose "Nordic" J is mostly J2.

                              What is the frequency then of haplogroup J2 in Denmark?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by J Man
                                What is the frequency then of haplogroup J2 in Denmark?

                                My guess would be that about 1 in 20 danish men are J2.

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