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Ydna in the Nordic countries.

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  • ylgitn
    replied
    Interesting. Thanks, Josh. Does Oppenheimer describe any differences in the SNPs or STRs for the two separate migrations of J2 to Britain?

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Ylgitn, Oppenheimer saw the J2 migration as part of the neolithic expansion of J2. In his view J2 and E3b first migrated to the Mediterranian from the Near East. After reaching western Spain, the path went along the Atlantic Coast to the north coast of France. At this point the J2 path split in two, with one branch going to the west coast of Britain and the other branch going through the Low Countries and eventually to the east coast of Britain. In other words, the migration took place thousands of years ago.
    I mentioned the Low Countries as a possible explanation of how the J2 might have gotten to Germany, although a Danubian neolithic pathway makes at least as much sense. As far as Germany and Denmark go, there is little sign of a J2 path from northeastern Europe since the northern Slavic, Baltic and eastern Scandinavian countries are all low in J2 except for Jews who were moving in the opposite direction.

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by ylgitn
    By my math it's 5%...

    Thanks ylgitn.

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  • ylgitn
    replied
    Originally posted by J Man
    So percentage wise what would you say that is?
    By my math it's 5%...

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  • ylgitn
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w.
    A few clarifications and then I will shut up.
    Oppenheimer pointed to a J2 migration to England via the Low Countries. This is why I used the phrase "Germanic speaking" rather than "German speaking". Oppenheimer did not seem to be aware of the research pointing to J2 in Germany.

    The J2 in Denmark did not appear to be accompanied by it's neolithic partner E3b. Perhaps the explanation involves the subclades of J2. Cruciani's recent paper suggests that E3b migrated with J2b, one of the two major J2 subcldes. If the other subclade J2a is present in Denmark, this might explain the lower frequency of E3b.
    When did Oppenheimer say he thought the J2 migration from the Low Countries to England occurred?

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  • josh w.
    replied
    A few clarifications and then I will shut up.
    Oppenheimer pointed to a J2 migration to England via the Low Countries. This is why I used the phrase "Germanic speaking" rather than "German speaking". Oppenheimer did not seem to be aware of the research pointing to J2 in Germany.

    The J2 in Denmark did not appear to be accompanied by it's neolithic partner E3b. Perhaps the explanation involves the subclades of J2. Cruciani's recent paper suggests that E3b migrated with J2b, one of the two major J2 subcldes. If the other subclade J2a is present in Denmark, this might explain the lower frequency of E3b.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    I got the Kayser reference from a Dienkenes blog. He also noted that the Czech Republic was similar to Germany in regard to J2. Gradual neolithic migration to the northwest?

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
    My guess would be that about 1 in 20 danish men are J2.

    So percentage wise what would you say that is?

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w.
    A recent study by Kayser et. al. in "Human Genetics" compared German and Polish haplogroups. Although J2 is not usually associated with Germany, Kayser found higher rates of J2 there. Besides a Danubian path, Roman- German contact could have brought J2 to that region.

    To me it makes more sense that the Romans would have brought the majority of J2 to both Germany and Britain. Especially in Britain it is found in areas that were known as being Roman settlements and forts.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    A recent study by Kayser et. al. in "Human Genetics" compared German and Polish haplogroups. Although J2 is not usually associated with Germany, Kayser found higher rates of J2 there. Besides a Danubian path, Roman- German contact could have brought J2 to that region.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Sorry, the source for the Danish estimates was not fully described. It was not clear that long term residency in Denmark was required of subjects.
    Oppenheimer has suggested that British Y dna J2 came from Germanic speaking northern Europe, i.e. south of the Baltic. (I am not sure how it got there, perhaps up the Danube from the Black Sea). Perhaps this was the source of the Danish J2.

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  • Paul_Johnsen
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w.
    There has been significant Turkish migration to Germany which borders Denmark but not the other Scandinavian countries. This is one of the more likely explanations of the pattern of J2 in Scandinavia beside the Ashkenazi possibility. Does anyone know the respective Greek and Italian immigrant populations in the various Scandinavian countries. Other explanations for J2, e.g. commerce of the Rus in the Black Sea area, do not account for the higher rates in Denmark.
    J2 in Denmark can hardly be attributed to jews. I think the maximum number of jews in Denmark was about 10,000, so not nearly enough to explain the aparent high frequency of J2 in the country.

    Recent immigration (turks etc) would obviously not be a factor in these types of surveys. In any case there doesn't seem to be much of the other "neolithic" y-haplogroups in Denmark (my guess is that G and E3b make up about 1% +/- I think Sweden, Finland and Norway has basically an equal amount of these group as Denmark).

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  • Paul_Johnsen
    replied
    Originally posted by J Man
    What is the frequency then of haplogroup J2 in Denmark?

    My guess would be that about 1 in 20 danish men are J2.

    Leave a comment:


  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul_Johnsen
    J seems to be found in high frequency among Danes (including parts of Sweden that was until recently Danish), and is rare in Norway and Finland. I don't have any explanation for this, but the frequency of Danish J2 seems to be almost the same as the frequency of Danish R1a1.

    I would suppose "Nordic" J is mostly J2.

    What is the frequency then of haplogroup J2 in Denmark?

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  • Eki
    replied
    Originally posted by Eki
    On the other hand, I think there could have been corridor through Finland and Sweden to Central Norway. It may have gone through the hot spot in Southern Ostrobothnia in Finland as illustrated in the picture below. Maybe there is so much R1a especially in Norway because they hit the Atlantic Ocean and couldn't get further.
    There's a mysterious Iron Age burial site in Southern Ostrobothnia. The people buried in it didn't resemble Finns, Scandinavians or Saami but people in Central Russia. There's now a lot of R1a in Central Russia. Maybe they explain the "yellow spot" of R1a in Southern Ostrobothnia:

    http://sydaby.eget.net/gen/kyro.htm

    We have knowledge of the racial characteristics of the ancient Kyro people because of the discovery of about 100 skeletons that were found in the Levähuhta springs in Storkyro and in Keldomäki in Vörå. How the dead ended up in the springs is unclear, but archaeologists think it probably was a normal burial site.

    The skeletons of the ancient Kyro people were small young people, thought to be Lapps. Their skulls were long and narrow, which is a deviation from the form of the Lapps’ heads and their physical structure separates them from the larger build of the Finns and Scandinavians.

    One who later researched the skeletons of the ancient Kyro people is Tarja Formisto who received a Doctor’s degree at the University of Stockholm in 1993. She completed her research that compares her own results with information of different people who lived within a radius of 100 kilometers. The results showed that the ancient Kyro people greatly resembled the people who lived in central Russia, around the area of the rivers Volga and Oka. They were of the Fatjanovo culture from the Bronze Age.

    The linguists Jorma Koivulehto and Asko Parpola, together with archaeologist Christian Carpelan, found that during the Bronze Age people from the Fatjanovo culture moved to the interior of eastern Finland — a people who talked the Finno-Ugric language, but used many words that belonged to the Aryan language group of the Indo-European language. It is thought that some of these Aryans moved, perhaps as a [blow] to their leadership. It is possible that during the Bronze Age a part of this folk group came to southern Österbotten and lived there in the Iron Age without associating much with other people. This should solve the riddle of the origin of the ancient Kyro people. As far as I know, genealogists do not think so.

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