Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Viking DNA Proves Israelite Presence at Black Sea

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    lots of people were around the black sea including Greeks and Scythians. How does this women prove to tie in with jewish people? or did I miss something?
    Last edited by M.O'Connor; 16 April 2007, 08:07 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eki
    replied
    As contrast, I represent a case where common sense is blinded by ideology and religion:

    http://www.giveshare.org/israel/finland.html

    Leave a comment:


  • Eki
    replied
    Also Coon in his 1939 book "The Races of Europe" discusses the anthropological differences within Norway and their relationship with the sagas:

    http://www.snpa.nordish.net/chapter-IX4.htm

    The poet who described so vividly these three classes in the Norse population has given us a priceless picture of the people of Scandinavia during the pre-Christian Iron Age, as he saw them. The thralls, landless seffs, were, in part, prisoners brought to Scandinavia by the Norse seafarers, but this explanation cannot apply to the thrall class as a whole. A three class system was an old Nordic institution, common to most Indo-European speaking peoples, and it is unlikely that the Iron Age invaders from central Europe had entered Scandinavia without their henchmen. Part, at least, of the thrall class must be considered the descendants of Danubians, Dinarics, and Alpines who were imported by their more aristocratic overlords, and who formed, in solution with Nordic, the lower class of the original population.

    The carls find no ready counterpart in central Europe, and were probably largely indigenous, the Bronze Age prototypes of the peoples of Jaeren, Trøndelag, and Valle. The physical attributes of these carls are clearly contrasted with the more purely Nordic description of the jarls, who formed obviously the upper class of the Iron Age invading group, including many of the bondi, or free land owners without title, and who were apparently a numerous body.

    Let us turn for a moment to consider the historical work of Snorre Sturlason. This erudite scholar deals with the gods as if they were men, and treats their mythical actions as history. His rationalization seems to have been uncannily accurate. In the first place, Asgard, the home of the gods, was a town on the northern shore of the Black Sea. These gods fought a people called the vanir, with whom they eventually agreed to exchange hostages. Odin, the king of the gods, agreed to take Frey and Freya, two of the vanir, and these were soon deified along with their hosts. The gods then left Asgard; and moved northwestward; they sojourned in Denmark, and passed without much ado into Sweden. This country became their main home, and Uppsala their chief center. Odin worship, which arose among their descendants, the kings and jarls, was centered especially in this neighborhood, and the worship of Frey and Freya as well.

    Thor, who was a rough-and-tumble bucolic god, is little mentioned in this Asgardian history; he was apparently an earlier god and the especial deity of the coastal people of Norway. Odin was a sophisticated personage, wearing a finely woven blue cape and carrying an iron spear; Thor who clothed himself in skins, carried a hammer as his weapon, and drove about in a goat-drawn chariot. If we grant that Odin was the chief god brought in by the Iron Age invaders, and surrounded with their classically-inspired trappings of luxury, then Thor was apparently the god of the older people, of the carl class, and he represents in his person and attributes a blend between the robust Mesolithic hunters and fishermen, and the Megalithic and Corded people. His association with the last named is clearly shown by his devotion to the doubleheaded hammer, which was probably nothing more nor less than the boat-axe.

    The worshippers of Odin and Frey were especially interested in the horse; horse sacrifices were made to these gods, and to Frey was dedicated the cult of the embalmed horse's penis. In Norway the horse was replaced to a certain extent as a funeral object by the ship; and the ships were made by the carls, who had learned their craft from their Megalithic predecessors and ancestors. With the introduction of iron, ship-building flourished, and the Viking was nothing more nor less than a sea-going central European Nordic, who had exchanged his horse for a steed suited to a new environment, with the coöperation of a vigorous body of indigenous craftsmen and warriors, into whose racial body his own group was soon blended.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eki
    replied
    Originally posted by Wena
    Referring to this article: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1709020.ece

    I do not know if the people that are believed to have migrated to the Nordic areas were of Jewish ZEBULON origin, are there any evidence that supports such a theory?

    There are scientists that have supporting evidence that the early Nordic Vikings might be of Black Sea origin. Later Vikings mixed with the Saami people that already populated the present Scandinavian countries, Finland and north-western Russia. It is not about prehistoric Viking migrations from the Black Sea, but migrations that took place about 110 AD.

    Thor Heyerdahl and his team have found archaeological remains of a much older (earlier than 110 AD) but similar Viking culture as the Scandinavian in the Azov area near the Black Sea. The Scandinavian Viking Culture is dated to around 800-1015 AD. The archaeological findings from the older Viking culture are collected and conserved at Azov Regional Museum in Russia (see the second URL). Heyerdahl et.al have a theory that the Azov Vikings fled the area when attacked by Romans around year 110 AD and then migrated northwards and into Scandinavia.

    It is also interesting that these Vikings are traced along a path northwestwards, via present Russia to Finland and to in the north of Finnmark and in southern Scandinavia. Findings of silver jewellery and objects in Alta (in the heart of the Saami area) led Heyerdahl to Azov. We have to wait to see what comes out of this research.

    Heyerdahl wrote about this theory in his last book and this theory fits well with the introduction of new agricultural technology (plough, ridging plough and scythe) introduced in the Nordic countries about 500 AD. It is widely recognised that Azerbaijan and Black Sea Region was an agricultural area from early on so it fits well in the picture that such technology followed people that migrated from there.

    Thor Heyerdahl and crew believe that Odin was a headman of this older Viking culture in the Azov area. The foundation of his theory is both the archaeological findings and the Norse sagas. The first URL is in Norwegian:
    The URL is a description of the studies and reports:

    http://www.thorheyerdahl.org/projects/azov2002.html

    http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...storfjell.html
    http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...heyerdahl.html

    “In the ancient caves of Gobustan which date back at least 5,000 years, cave drawings depict two different kinds of boats that were used for early navigation. Heyerdahl is convinced that people living in the area now known as Azerbaijan settled in Scandinavia around 100 AD. Gobustan is located about 30 miles southwest of Baku.”

    http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...heyerdahl.html

    You can find a lot more in the links added inside these URL’s.
    Well, the sagas tell about two tribes, Vanir and Aesir who first fought each other but then allied with each other. The Aesir were said to be lead by Odin and the oldest Scandinavian dynasty, the Yngling dynasty, descended from the Vanir:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngling

    I believe it's possible that the Aesir came from the Black Sea and brought Y-hg R1a with them and the Vanir were indigenous Scandinavian people of Y-hg I1a.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Son_Of_Israel
    If one is to accept the argument put forward by some rabbinical and biblical scholars, and some authors, that the Israelite Tribe of ZEBULON/ZEBULAN is geographically identifiable with HOLLAND, then the following recently published article [26 March 2007] "Viking Woman had roots near the Black Sea" [from http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...le1709020.ece] adds credence to the hypothesis that specifically, the Israelite Tribe of ZEBULON had at some stage been in the Black Sea Region where today the Ancient-Walled Scythian City of HELON [rendered GELON in Ukrainian] - as described by Herodotus - is currently being excavated.[/I]

    Referring to this article: http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1709020.ece

    I do not know if the people that are believed to have migrated to the Nordic areas were of Jewish ZEBULON origin, are there any evidence that supports such a theory?

    There are scientists that have supporting evidence that the early Nordic Vikings might be of Black Sea origin. Later Vikings mixed with the Saami people that already populated the present Scandinavian countries, Finland and north-western Russia. It is not about prehistoric Viking migrations from the Black Sea, but migrations that took place about 110 AD.

    Thor Heyerdahl and his team have found archaeological remains of a much older (earlier than 110 AD) but similar Viking culture as the Scandinavian in the Azov area near the Black Sea. The Scandinavian Viking Culture is dated to around 800-1015 AD. The archaeological findings from the older Viking culture are collected and conserved at Azov Regional Museum in Russia (see the second URL). Heyerdahl et.al have a theory that the Azov Vikings fled the area when attacked by Romans around year 110 AD and then migrated northwards and into Scandinavia.

    It is also interesting that these Vikings are traced along a path northwestwards, via present Russia to Finland and to in the north of Finnmark and in southern Scandinavia. Findings of silver jewellery and objects in Alta (in the heart of the Saami area) led Heyerdahl to Azov. We have to wait to see what comes out of this research.

    Heyerdahl wrote about this theory in his last book and this theory fits well with the introduction of new agricultural technology (plough, ridging plough and scythe) introduced in the Nordic countries about 500 AD. It is widely recognised that Azerbaijan and Black Sea Region was an agricultural area from early on so it fits well in the picture that such technology followed people that migrated from there.

    Thor Heyerdahl and crew believe that Odin was a headman of this older Viking culture in the Azov area. The foundation of his theory is both the archaeological findings and the Norse sagas. The first URL is in Norwegian:
    The URL is a description of the studies and reports:

    http://www.thorheyerdahl.org/projects/azov2002.html

    http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...storfjell.html
    http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...heyerdahl.html

    “In the ancient caves of Gobustan which date back at least 5,000 years, cave drawings depict two different kinds of boats that were used for early navigation. Heyerdahl is convinced that people living in the area now known as Azerbaijan settled in Scandinavia around 100 AD. Gobustan is located about 30 miles southwest of Baku.”

    http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories...heyerdahl.html

    You can find a lot more in the links added inside these URL’s.
    Last edited by Wena; 10 April 2007, 11:08 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • derinos
    replied
    Vikings getting about.

    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
    I once met a pretty young bar girl in Hong Kong who claimed her daddy was a Norwegian sailor. But it would be more rare to find Nowegian mtDNA at such an outpost, I suppose.
    Da--, no autosomal testing then ?
    As an I1a, I have often approved of the way the Vikings always left their women at home. All the more strange that pregnant Gudrid was taken along on Thorfinn Karlsevni's long (ca 950AD) expedition. She birthed the first Euro-American, Snorri, somewhere that sounds from the saga, like, what, Cape Cod ? Cape Elizabeth? Maybe even further south, from the sailing count. A hundred miles a day was easy for those vessels. They made it back to Iceland a couple of years later, where Snorri went into politics, to earn the nickname "The wisest man in Iceland, without foresight". Reminds you of....?

    Leave a comment:


  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    Them Vikings get around

    I once met a pretty young bar girl in Hong Kong who claimed her daddy was a Norwegian sailor. But it would be more rare to find Nowegian mtDNA at such an outpost, I suppose.

    Leave a comment:


  • derinos
    replied
    Judea, not Israel.

    Apologies for giving the wrong name of the relevant Roman Province. It was "Judaea", not "Israel", though geographically not far out of line with today's Israel and some contested areas.

    Leave a comment:


  • derinos
    replied
    Judea, not Israel.

    Apologies for giving the wrong name of the relevant Roman Province. It was "Judaea", not "Israel", though geographically not far out of line with today's Israel and some contestd areas.

    Leave a comment:


  • derinos
    replied
    Black sea fascination.

    1. Son of Israel, I was disappointed with the Aftenposten link about the Viking Queen excavation, which was a black hole. (Not the excavation, but the link.) I await the professor's formal scientific publication.

    Still, you do not need a Viking Queen's skeleton to support the idea that Levant people, whatever their religion or tribal affiliation, would have had a connection with the Black Sea. You can walk there in a few weeks, less if you have camels or horses. The Jewish exodus caused by the 1st C Roman shutdown of the Province of Israel did indeed cause many to take such a trip.

    Also, a few centuries later, the Russ, meaning "Rowing People" as the Scandinavian traders were called, worked the Volga as a route direct to the Black Sea, creating a trading empire that was to become the mediaeval state of Russ-ia.
    What about Anatevka? Some of the "schtetlim" of later times may well have started within those two circumstances. No intermarriage permitted, (maybe the ocasional runaway?) but mutual Scando-Semitic trading support, yes. Maybe including overland trading route Jewish knowhow, to those equally fascinating places further South.

    2. I thought I understood the mythologic source of the Noah Flood, but the following puts us back to the first rush of post-LGM unfreezing, 8,000 years earlier. So, maybe there were two Black Sea inundations.

    There was ample time between them for major repopulation and a false sense of security. Indeed, about the same timespan as that between Noah and now.

    *****From TCHEPALYGA, Andrey, Institute of Geography, Russian Academy of Science, 29, Staromonetniy per, Moscow 109017 Russia, email:[email protected]

    "A comparative analysis of the Late Glacial history of the inner basins of Eurasia enables us to suggest an alternative to the Early Holocene Flood that Ryan et al. (1997) thought could be the basis for the legend of Noah’s Flood. At the Late Glacial time (16-13 ka BP; 14C on mollusk’s shells) a Great Eurasian Basin System (~1.5 million km2, ~650,000-700,000 km3) developed due to a climate warming, the melting of the Scandinavia Ice Sheet and massive river discharge. This is supported by freshwater and alluvial sediments (e.g., chocolate clays, loams and sands with a thickness of ca 20-30 m) with endemic Caspian mollusks Didacna, Monodacna, Adacna, and Hypanis widely distributed from the Caspian Sea to the Dardanelles including waterways between the basins. At the beginning (16-15 ka BP), the flood was especially rapid, increasing the Caspian Sea level by 100-150 m, reaching +50 m and pushing the Volga River mouth upstream in ca 1,500 km. The discharge of the large (Volga, Don, Dnieper) and small rivers increased by 2-4 and 20-35 times respectively, causing megafloods....
    More on Google.

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by vineviz
    On the other hand, no fantastic or outlandish theories are required to explain such a result. A high percentage of all Europeans have "forefathers how may have lived in the Black Sea region" since that was a primary source of post-glacial recolonization of Europe.
    It should also be noted that the Varangians, as the Vikings and Scandinavians in general were known to the Byzantine Empire, served as mercenaries in the Byzantine army. I believe that they were regarded as some sort of elite unit. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian and http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/Varangians.html )

    Also, as the previous poster noted, there was Varangian trade with the Byzantine Empire in the same time period - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tra..._to_the_Greeks

    Both these historical events occurred after 800 AD and could explain any genetic similarities between Scandinavian and Black Sea area populations, without resort to outlandish (or, if you prefer, highly speculative) theories.

    Leave a comment:


  • allbell
    replied
    Lots of trade

    Originally posted by vineviz
    On the other hand, no fantastic or outlandish theories are required to explain such a result. A high percentage of all Europeans have "forefathers how may have lived in the Black Sea region" since that was a primary source of post-glacial recolonization of Europe.
    Also, I thought there was a lot of fairly well-documented trade involving goods from the Black Sea area and the Viking lands during the Viking era.

    Leave a comment:


  • vineviz
    replied
    Originally posted by Son_Of_Israel
    'The bones of one of the women found in one of Norway's most famous Viking graves suggest her ancestors came from the area around the Black Sea.

    The woman herself was "Norwegian," claims Professor Per Holck at the University of Oslo, who has conducted analyses of DNA material taken from her bones.

    But Holck says that while she came from the area that today is Norway, her forefathers may have lived n the Black Sea region.
    On the other hand, no fantastic or outlandish theories are required to explain such a result. A high percentage of all Europeans have "forefathers how may have lived in the Black Sea region" since that was a primary source of post-glacial recolonization of Europe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Son_Of_Israel
    started a topic Viking DNA Proves Israelite Presence at Black Sea

    Viking DNA Proves Israelite Presence at Black Sea

    If one is to accept the argument put forward by some rabbinical and biblical scholars, and some authors, that the Israelite Tribe of ZEBULON/ZEBULAN is geographically identifiable with HOLLAND, then the following recently published article [26 March 2007] "Viking Woman had roots near the Black Sea" [from http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...le1709020.ece] adds credence to the hypothesis that specifically, the Israelite Tribe of ZEBULON had at some stage been in the Black Sea Region where today the Ancient-Walled Scythian City of HELON [rendered GELON in Ukrainian] - as described by Herodotus - is currently being excavated.

    HELON was the son of ZEBULON, who was the son of JACOB [ISRAEL] and he was Prince of the HELONIANS, who were a Clan of the Israelite Tribe of ZEBULON.

    With this in mind, one could reasonably conclude that only a number of Clansmen of the Israelite Tribe of ZEBULON had migrated westwards after spending quite some time in the Black Sea Region after the Exodus.

    The woman - a Viking Queen - has been identified by name; further details about her can be found through searching GOOGLE:

    'The bones of one of the women found in one of Norway's most famous Viking graves suggest her ancestors came from the area around the Black Sea.

    The woman herself was "Norwegian," claims Professor Per Holck at the University of Oslo, who has conducted analyses of DNA material taken from her bones.

    But Holck says that while she came from the area that today is Norway, her forefathers may have lived n the Black Sea region.

    Holck, attached to the anthropological division of the university's anatomy institute (Anatomisk institutt), isn't willing to reveal more details pending publication of an article in the British magazine "European Archaeology" later this year.

    He told newspaper Aftenposten, though, that he's recommending the woman's bones be retrieved for further study. They were first found in 1904, when the Oseberg Viking ship was excavated, and analysed by the university.

    The analysis data was withheld, however, and the woman's remains were returned to the Oseberg burial mound in 1947. Holck has only worked with the DNA extracted at the time, and he thinks they should be reexamined.

    He worries, however, that her bones may have been damaged during the past 60 years. If the remains are intact, he said, it would probably be possible to take more DNA tests that could reveal more about the woman and another female's bones also extracted from the Oseberg site.'
Working...
X