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A friend was kind enough to give me his overview of my R1b1c* status and Oppenheimer's theory.
Hopefully he will not mind me sharing his words with the group. My reason for doing so is for further discussion.
I want to get out of this R1b1c* no man's land.
David
Canada
"Oppenheimer says that "Ruslan", (gene group R) moved into Europe from the east around 30,000 years ago. His descendants moved south into the Franco/Iberian refugia during the Last Glacial Maximum (which is commonly called "The Last Ice Age"). Only one group emerged from the refugia when the LGM ended and this was R1b - this group still has its highest frequency in the Basque country (about 90% of the population) but is common all the way up the Atlantic coast. Oppenheimer calls this group "Ruisko". One group of "Ruisko" men (plus their women of course) moved north after about 16,500 years ago. This Oppenheimer calls R1b-9 and labels it the Basque Haplotype. This is one STR mutation removed from the Atlantic Modal Haplotype which did not expand until much later, around 11,500 years ago, significantly after the Younger Dryas.
He argues that although the Younger Dryas meant a return to very cold conditions, these early pioneers actually managed to go on living in the north (I suspect much as the Inuit or Saami do in the Arctic today). Unlike the period during the LGM, there was still food resources to be had, including mammoths and of course, fish. The root male gene cluster R1b-9 which made this early excursion into the north is labelled "Rox", another Basque name. He says that Rox made several significant expansions outside the Iberian refuge at the end of the LGM but before the Younger Dryas. Quote: "Six of the sixteen British male founding clusters (R1b-4 to R1b-6 and R1b-14 to R1b-16) descended directly from Rox and date before 13,000 years ago." ( p.124) Twenty-seven percent of British men claim descent from these seven founding clusters.
Now look at Chapter 3, p.126
"The westerly distribution of Rox is reflected in that of his derived branches............. Three R1b-15 sub-clusters focus on the Atlantic fringe, each with slightly different emphasis. However, only one of these three actually expanded on arrival (Figure 3.6e - p.119); one more re-expanded immediately after the Younger Dryas, while a third re-expanded during the Neolithic"... and he refers to Note 55 which reads:
(Note 55, p. 464: ) "R1b-15a, age 11,539 years.... R1b-15b, age 5,729 years..... R1b-15c, age 14,958 years (rooted on Ht 247, n=30, SD +/- 4,623)
In other words, if Oppenheimer has got it right (and many quarrel with him and his methods, mostly because he used only 6 STR markers and because his numbers - "n" - are only small) then your remote ancestors were among the first Homo sapiens sapiens to enter Europe (there were Homo neanderthalensis there fore a very long time before this). These were what is called the "Aurignacian" culture. They lived out the LGM in the Iberian refugia and emerged some time between the end of the LGM and the Younger Dryas, just on 15,000 years ago. They reached what are now the British Isles most probably by following the coastline of the much-expanded Europe - the sea levels were so low, you could walk to Ireland or Cornwall from Brittany - Oppenheimer's map suggests R1b-15c went first to Cornwall whereas it was R1b-14 who went to Ireland.
So, David, according to Oppenheimer your remote ancestry is indigenous Briton. BUT be warned, if Oppy is wrong, then this is all wrong too.... I told you my story - Oppenheimer said my R1b-11 cluster was also a Mesolithic migration but, in the case of R1b-11, it expanded in the Neolithic. That that got me safely, so I believed, to eastern Scotland.... then I tested + on S28 and so all is now in confusion. At least, since you are negative on all S-SNPs, you won't have this shock awaiting you... what you will have to wait for is new SNPs downstream of R1b1c* which will better define the location of your ancestral groups.
I hope I got all this right.... I feel very aware of my ignorance in these matters. And I hope it has helped you clarify some of the confusing war of words which geneticists and others seem to wage at us poor old laymen."
Hopefully he will not mind me sharing his words with the group. My reason for doing so is for further discussion.
I want to get out of this R1b1c* no man's land.
David
Canada
"Oppenheimer says that "Ruslan", (gene group R) moved into Europe from the east around 30,000 years ago. His descendants moved south into the Franco/Iberian refugia during the Last Glacial Maximum (which is commonly called "The Last Ice Age"). Only one group emerged from the refugia when the LGM ended and this was R1b - this group still has its highest frequency in the Basque country (about 90% of the population) but is common all the way up the Atlantic coast. Oppenheimer calls this group "Ruisko". One group of "Ruisko" men (plus their women of course) moved north after about 16,500 years ago. This Oppenheimer calls R1b-9 and labels it the Basque Haplotype. This is one STR mutation removed from the Atlantic Modal Haplotype which did not expand until much later, around 11,500 years ago, significantly after the Younger Dryas.
He argues that although the Younger Dryas meant a return to very cold conditions, these early pioneers actually managed to go on living in the north (I suspect much as the Inuit or Saami do in the Arctic today). Unlike the period during the LGM, there was still food resources to be had, including mammoths and of course, fish. The root male gene cluster R1b-9 which made this early excursion into the north is labelled "Rox", another Basque name. He says that Rox made several significant expansions outside the Iberian refuge at the end of the LGM but before the Younger Dryas. Quote: "Six of the sixteen British male founding clusters (R1b-4 to R1b-6 and R1b-14 to R1b-16) descended directly from Rox and date before 13,000 years ago." ( p.124) Twenty-seven percent of British men claim descent from these seven founding clusters.
Now look at Chapter 3, p.126
"The westerly distribution of Rox is reflected in that of his derived branches............. Three R1b-15 sub-clusters focus on the Atlantic fringe, each with slightly different emphasis. However, only one of these three actually expanded on arrival (Figure 3.6e - p.119); one more re-expanded immediately after the Younger Dryas, while a third re-expanded during the Neolithic"... and he refers to Note 55 which reads:
(Note 55, p. 464: ) "R1b-15a, age 11,539 years.... R1b-15b, age 5,729 years..... R1b-15c, age 14,958 years (rooted on Ht 247, n=30, SD +/- 4,623)
In other words, if Oppenheimer has got it right (and many quarrel with him and his methods, mostly because he used only 6 STR markers and because his numbers - "n" - are only small) then your remote ancestors were among the first Homo sapiens sapiens to enter Europe (there were Homo neanderthalensis there fore a very long time before this). These were what is called the "Aurignacian" culture. They lived out the LGM in the Iberian refugia and emerged some time between the end of the LGM and the Younger Dryas, just on 15,000 years ago. They reached what are now the British Isles most probably by following the coastline of the much-expanded Europe - the sea levels were so low, you could walk to Ireland or Cornwall from Brittany - Oppenheimer's map suggests R1b-15c went first to Cornwall whereas it was R1b-14 who went to Ireland.
So, David, according to Oppenheimer your remote ancestry is indigenous Briton. BUT be warned, if Oppy is wrong, then this is all wrong too.... I told you my story - Oppenheimer said my R1b-11 cluster was also a Mesolithic migration but, in the case of R1b-11, it expanded in the Neolithic. That that got me safely, so I believed, to eastern Scotland.... then I tested + on S28 and so all is now in confusion. At least, since you are negative on all S-SNPs, you won't have this shock awaiting you... what you will have to wait for is new SNPs downstream of R1b1c* which will better define the location of your ancestral groups.
I hope I got all this right.... I feel very aware of my ignorance in these matters. And I hope it has helped you clarify some of the confusing war of words which geneticists and others seem to wage at us poor old laymen."
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