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plain vanilla R1b1c* or something else ??

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  • plain vanilla R1b1c* or something else ??

    A friend was kind enough to give me his overview of my R1b1c* status and Oppenheimer's theory.
    Hopefully he will not mind me sharing his words with the group. My reason for doing so is for further discussion.
    I want to get out of this R1b1c* no man's land.
    David
    Canada


    "Oppenheimer says that "Ruslan", (gene group R) moved into Europe from the east around 30,000 years ago. His descendants moved south into the Franco/Iberian refugia during the Last Glacial Maximum (which is commonly called "The Last Ice Age"). Only one group emerged from the refugia when the LGM ended and this was R1b - this group still has its highest frequency in the Basque country (about 90% of the population) but is common all the way up the Atlantic coast. Oppenheimer calls this group "Ruisko". One group of "Ruisko" men (plus their women of course) moved north after about 16,500 years ago. This Oppenheimer calls R1b-9 and labels it the Basque Haplotype. This is one STR mutation removed from the Atlantic Modal Haplotype which did not expand until much later, around 11,500 years ago, significantly after the Younger Dryas.

    He argues that although the Younger Dryas meant a return to very cold conditions, these early pioneers actually managed to go on living in the north (I suspect much as the Inuit or Saami do in the Arctic today). Unlike the period during the LGM, there was still food resources to be had, including mammoths and of course, fish. The root male gene cluster R1b-9 which made this early excursion into the north is labelled "Rox", another Basque name. He says that Rox made several significant expansions outside the Iberian refuge at the end of the LGM but before the Younger Dryas. Quote: "Six of the sixteen British male founding clusters (R1b-4 to R1b-6 and R1b-14 to R1b-16) descended directly from Rox and date before 13,000 years ago." ( p.124) Twenty-seven percent of British men claim descent from these seven founding clusters.

    Now look at Chapter 3, p.126
    "The westerly distribution of Rox is reflected in that of his derived branches............. Three R1b-15 sub-clusters focus on the Atlantic fringe, each with slightly different emphasis. However, only one of these three actually expanded on arrival (Figure 3.6e - p.119); one more re-expanded immediately after the Younger Dryas, while a third re-expanded during the Neolithic"... and he refers to Note 55 which reads:
    (Note 55, p. 464: ) "R1b-15a, age 11,539 years.... R1b-15b, age 5,729 years..... R1b-15c, age 14,958 years (rooted on Ht 247, n=30, SD +/- 4,623)

    In other words, if Oppenheimer has got it right (and many quarrel with him and his methods, mostly because he used only 6 STR markers and because his numbers - "n" - are only small) then your remote ancestors were among the first Homo sapiens sapiens to enter Europe (there were Homo neanderthalensis there fore a very long time before this). These were what is called the "Aurignacian" culture. They lived out the LGM in the Iberian refugia and emerged some time between the end of the LGM and the Younger Dryas, just on 15,000 years ago. They reached what are now the British Isles most probably by following the coastline of the much-expanded Europe - the sea levels were so low, you could walk to Ireland or Cornwall from Brittany - Oppenheimer's map suggests R1b-15c went first to Cornwall whereas it was R1b-14 who went to Ireland.

    So, David, according to Oppenheimer your remote ancestry is indigenous Briton. BUT be warned, if Oppy is wrong, then this is all wrong too.... I told you my story - Oppenheimer said my R1b-11 cluster was also a Mesolithic migration but, in the case of R1b-11, it expanded in the Neolithic. That that got me safely, so I believed, to eastern Scotland.... then I tested + on S28 and so all is now in confusion. At least, since you are negative on all S-SNPs, you won't have this shock awaiting you... what you will have to wait for is new SNPs downstream of R1b1c* which will better define the location of your ancestral groups.

    I hope I got all this right.... I feel very aware of my ignorance in these matters. And I hope it has helped you clarify some of the confusing war of words which geneticists and others seem to wage at us poor old laymen."

  • #2
    Originally posted by dcb123
    A friend was kind enough to give me his overview of my R1b1c* status and Oppenheimer's theory.
    Hopefully he will not mind me sharing his words with the group. My reason for doing so is for further discussion.
    I want to get out of this R1b1c* no man's land.
    David
    Canada


    "Oppenheimer says that "Ruslan", (gene group R) moved into Europe from the east around 30,000 years ago. His descendants moved south into the Franco/Iberian refugia during the Last Glacial Maximum (which is commonly called "The Last Ice Age"). Only one group emerged from the refugia when the LGM ended and this was R1b - this group still has its highest frequency in the Basque country (about 90% of the population) but is common all the way up the Atlantic coast. Oppenheimer calls this group "Ruisko". One group of "Ruisko" men (plus their women of course) moved north after about 16,500 years ago. This Oppenheimer calls R1b-9 and labels it the Basque Haplotype. This is one STR mutation removed from the Atlantic Modal Haplotype which did not expand until much later, around 11,500 years ago, significantly after the Younger Dryas....

    In other words, if Oppenheimer has got it right (and many quarrel with him and his methods, mostly because he used only 6 STR markers and because his numbers - "n" - are only small) then your remote ancestors were among the first Homo sapiens sapiens to enter Europe (there were Homo neanderthalensis there fore a very long time before this). These were what is called the "Aurignacian" culture. They lived out the LGM in the Iberian refugia and emerged some time between the end of the LGM and the Younger Dryas, just on 15,000 years ago. They reached what are now the British Isles most probably by following the coastline of the much-expanded Europe - the sea levels were so low, you could walk to Ireland or Cornwall from Brittany - Oppenheimer's map suggests R1b-15c went first to Cornwall whereas it was R1b-14 who went to Ireland.
    I object to Oppenheimer's method of using only 6 markers, all contained within the first 12 markers that FTDNA tests. I think it's possible to predict R1b subclades in certain cases with some accuracy with even 3 or 4 markers, but in just about every case (perhaps all) these 3 or 4 markers are not all contained within the first 12 FTDNA markers. So Oppenheimer is using the resources at his disposal, even though those resources don't allow him to make the conclusions he comes to.

    However, I don't accept his general history of R1b in Europe. The prevailing theory is that R1b has been in Europe for 30,000 years, meaning before LGM. I think that's an overestimate. I think R1b arrived in Europe around the time of LGM or even a few thousand years later and replaced whatever haplogroups, probably from North Africa and the Middle East, inhabited Europe pre-LGM.

    Why do I believe this? Because it's well-known that haplogroup R originated in Central Asia. Basically what you have in Europe is not R1b, but R1b1c, which is two levels down the haplogroup tree from R1b. According to the Genographic Project (GP), M45 (the SNP defining haplogroup P, parent of Q and R) arose in Central Asia about 35,000 ybp. Then M207 (SNP defining R) also arose in Central Asia, at an unspecified time, but soon after P arose. Next GP has the origin of M173 (SNP defining R1) in Central Asia about 30,000 years ago. If R1b and even R1b1c were in Europe 30,000 years ago, as Oppenheimer claims, please tell me how that's possible when R1 arises in Central Asia, thousands of miles away from western Europe at the same time!

    Here's where the story gets really wild. GP next has M343 (SNP defining R1b) entering Europe 30,000 years ago! Wait a minute. We're supposed to believe that R arises in Central Asia, R1 also arises in Central Asia and R1b arises at the fringes of Europe, all "about" 30,000 years ago??!! Doesn't sound likley to me, that 3 major SNPs arise on a branch of the tree at the same time. (By the way, the GP graphics have R1b/M343 in the section between 25,000 and 30,000 ybp, but they choose to round it off to "about" 30,000 years ago.)

    Try as I might, I could not find P25, the SNP defining R1b1, nor M269, which defines R1b1c, in the GP graphics. Since 99% of European R1b's are R1b1c, shouldn't we determine where and when P25/M269 arose before asserting that R1b/R1b1c has been in Europe for 30,000 years? And what about M73, which defines R1b1b? This is found today mostly in Central Asia, with low levels in Pakistan and Turkey, with almost none found in Europe. How could R1b or R1b1 have arisen in Europe, leading to R1b1c dominating the continent, if R1b1b is not even found at the 1% level in Europe and is mostly in Central Asia? Are we to believe that the original R1b1b man was born in Europe and then somehow he or his descendants completely moved to Central Asia or perhaps Turkey? Doesn't sound likely to me.

    Here's what I think. I believe R1b and R1b1 probably emerged somewhere between Central Asia and western Russia or Ukraine, as part of the westward movement of the R haplogroup. Based on what the GP timeline is above, I would guess that both R1b1 and R1b1c orginated at the earliest between 20,000 and 25,000 ybp. I think it's possible that R1b1c originated in Europe (probably eastern or central Europe), but there's no way it was there 30,000 years ago, as Oppenheimer and the general theory claims. This is why I believe that R1b1c only came to dominate Europe in the period of 15-20,000 ybp.

    Mike Maddi

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