European tribe in pre-Columbian America?

[Irubak]

I've just read an article about finding mummies which belong to "Chachapoyas", a tall, fair-haired, light-skinned race. They commanded a large kingdom from the year 800 to 1500 that stretched across the Andes. Some researchers believe that they might originate from Europe. These mummies would be great opportunity to find out their haplogroups. Unfortunately, the article just mentions that the mummies are going to be on show in a museum in Lima, but nothing about if any genetic research is planned. Does anubody know more about it?

Here is the link to the article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=427888&in_page_id=1811&ito=1490

[cobramach]

I am always intrigued, yet skeptical of stories like this. So, I did some digging and found this article: http://anthro.colstate.edu/Church2006.pdf

Go to page seven, where there are comments indicating skeletal remains showing typically native American features. Genetic testing demonstrates relationship to people currently living in the area.

The article also says the European connection has been sensationalized and overstated. I do think it is entirely possible that Europeans may have made their way into the New World during the ice age and other pre-Columbian times; we just can't prove it yet.

[lgmayka]

I do think it is entirely possible that Europeans may have made their way into the New World during the ice age and other pre-Columbian times; we just can't prove it yet.

Take a look at YGHJ3 on Ysearch. His nearest neighbor at 67 markers is a genetic distance of 32 from him. His surname project's page makes clear that his Old World origin is actually unknown:

http://www.small-stuff.com/SHARP/results.htm

Maybe his patrilineal line is Native American, ultimately from central Asia (where R1a1 is indeed found) or even from Europe.

[Irubak]

Dear Cobramach and Igmayka,

Thanks a lot for your comments and links. I keep digging!

[Eki]

I am always intrigued, yet skeptical of stories like this. So, I did some digging and found this article: http://anthro.colstate.edu/Church2006.pdf
The article also says the European connection has been sensationalized and overstated. I do think it is entirely possible that Europeans may have made their way into the New World during the ice age and other pre-Columbian times; we just can't prove it yet.

In addition, years 800 to 1500 AD cover the time when Europeans from Greenland/Iceland visited and for a short period settled North America. I don't think it's entirely impossible that some of them might have gone further south and stayed there.

[cobramach]

In addition, years 800 to 1500 AD cover the time when Europeans from Greenland/Iceland visited and for a short period settled North America. I don't think it's entirely impossible that some of them might have gone further south and stayed there.

I have read on a number of occasions of campsites in Virginia or North Carolina that date earlier than the glacial retreat, around 13,500 BC, I think. There is another site in Pennsylvania. The implication is that sometimes, the most obvious conclusion is the correct one; they came from Europe. The ice sheets would have made it next to impossible for Asian-derived peoples to have successfully crossed what is now the Great Plains. Gradually, everyone became what is now considered to be Native American. Trouble is, with so much modern European admixture, I don't know how easy it would be to define genetically. I suppose it is also possible that these early east coast people could have been related to modern day Eskimo people. Don't know for sure, not a paleoanthropologist

Interestingly, with regard to the Viking settlement in North America, I have also read that coins contemporary with Viking trade in Europe occasionally appeared in Native American settlements in the western US hundreds of years later. I wish I had a citation for this. Either the Norse were deprived of them unwillingly, or they did have some attempts at trade with Native Americans. As tribes traded with each other, these European coins from around 1000 AD found their way across North America.

[Eki]

Interestingly, with regard to the Viking settlement in North America, I have also read that coins contemporary with Viking trade in Europe occasionally appeared in Native American settlements in the western US hundreds of years later. I wish I had a citation for this. Either the Norse were deprived of them unwillingly, or they did have some attempts at trade with Native Americans. As tribes traded with each other, these European coins from around 1000 AD found their way across North America.

I've read that the Norse first co-existed peacefully with the Natives, but then they gave the Natives milk, which to them was a normal drink, but the Natives were lactose intolerant and became ill. The Natives thought the Norse were trying to poison them and became hostile. I don't know if it's true, but it's an interesting story.

[derinos]

There is a "Redpaint Burial" at Paviland, on the Gower Peninsula in Wales, locally known as "The Red Lady of Paviland". It is now recognised as a young male skeleton coated with red ochre, dated ca 12000 ybp. Similar burials are noted from Norway and Brittany, Maine and Newfoundland. A related interesting quotation follows:-

"America b.c. and even earlier
The thought that the Atlantic might have been a thoroughfare long before Columbus and the Vikings has been ridiculed by most archeologists for decades. New England megaliths and B. Fell's translations of purported Celtic ogham inscriptions have met only with derision in the professional literature. But times are changing -- at least we hope so.

The Red Paint People.

Public TV recently aired a program on North America's Red Paint People, so-called because they added brilliant red iron oxide to their graves. It also seems they knew how to sail the deep ocean, as G.F. Carter now relates.


"Decades ago, Gutorn Gjessing pointed out that the identical [Red Paint] culture was found in Norway. No one paid much attention to that, but more recent carbon-14 dating has shown that the identical cultures had identical dates, and people began to pay more attention. It is now admitted that this is a high latitude culture that obviously sailed the stormy north Atlantic and stretched from northwest Europe over to America. It seemingly extends from along the Atlantic coast of Europe to America and in America from the high latitudes of Labrador down into New York state.
"The dates are mind-boggling: 7,000 years ago both in Europe and America. That is 2,000 years earlier than the Great Pyramids of Egypt. It is at least 4,000 years earlier than the Mound Builders of the Ohio Valley. The evidence is cummulative, varied in nature, and most probably highly reliable."

(Carter, George F.; "Before Columbus," Ellsworth American, November 23, 1990. Cr. R. Strong.)

[tomcat]

I've read that the Norse first co-existed peacefully with the Natives, but then they gave the Natives milk, which to them was a normal drink, but the Natives were lactose intolerant and became ill. The Natives thought the Norse were trying to poison them and became hostile. I don't know if it's true, but it's an interesting story.

I only know of three Icelandic references to Vikings in Vinland - Leif's Saga, Gudrun's Saga and the story about the Freydis, Leif's half-sister. Recall no mention of milk in any of those. There are several intriguing anecdotes concerning goodwill between Native Americans and Vikings in Gudrun's Saga. Quite the opposite case in Leif's Saga. Freydis' story is a really a drama of Erickson family political intrigue.

[Jim Denning]

I've just read an article about finding mummies which belong to "Chachapoyas", a tall, fair-haired, light-skinned race. They commanded a large kingdom from the year 800 to 1500 that stretched across the Andes. Some researchers believe that they might originate from Europe. These mummies would be great opportunity to find out their haplogroups. Unfortunately, the article just mentions that the mummies are going to be on show in a museum in Lima, but nothing about if any genetic research is planned. Does anubody know more about it?

Here is the link to the article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1811&ito=1490

america bc by barry fell

[augustin25]

There's a reason archaeologists dismiss red ochre as evidence for Europeans reaching the Americas during the ice age; it's bunk. Red ochre is associated with burials all over the world and throughout human history. It's not a signature of a particular group. The earliest examples I can think of are from Qafzeh Cave in Israel that date to about 100,000 years ago.

[Irubak]

There's a reason archaeologists dismiss red ochre as evidence for Europeans reaching the Americas during the ice age; it's bunk. Red ochre is associated with burials all over the world and throughout human history. It's not a signature of a particular group. The earliest examples I can think of are from Qafzeh Cave in Israel that date to about 100,000 years ago.

I was referring to the light-skin tribe in Peru (see the first post) not to the red-ochre peoples.

[augustin25]

Sorry, Irubak. To clarify, I was addressing derinos' post but forgot to quote it

[Irubak]

Sorry, Irubak. To clarify, I was addressing derinos' post but forgot to quote it

All right

[rainbow]

I've just read an article about finding mummies which belong to "Chachapoyas", a tall, fair-haired, light-skinned race. They commanded a large kingdom from the year 800 to 1500 that stretched across the Andes. Some researchers believe that they might originate from Europe. These mummies would be great opportunity to find out their haplogroups. Unfortunately, the article just mentions that the mummies are going to be on show in a museum in Lima, but nothing about if any genetic research is planned. Does anubody know more about it?

Here is the link to the article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1811&ito=1490

Fascinating.
I haven't seen this before. Thank you for posting it.

I would like to know their haplogroups. And autosomals.
I wonder if Peruvians of today are a blend of the Chachapoyas or 'cloud people' and Incas. Especially the fairer ones who say they have no Spanish ancestry.