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Natufians haplogroup J2?

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  • Natufians haplogroup J2?

    According to the Genographic project the Natufians were the first people to settle down and really start on the road to agriculture. Spencer Wells links haplogroup J2 to the Natufians. Now there is a very good chance that many of the Natufians were in haplogroup J2 but they lived in the area which is now Israel and Lebanon. The thing is I thought haplogroup J2 originated in the Northern part of the Fertile Crescent. Isn't Israel and Lebanon in the Southern part? Were the Natufians really J2s then I wonder since they lived in the South not the North? Maybe they had a lot more J1 or just J? Or possibly also E3b? All of which are more common in the South.


    I wish we could get some testable Y-DNA from the Natufians to really see which haplogroup or haplogroups they belonged to.




    Y-DNA: J2a*

  • #2
    Here is an abstract from a presentation at a linguistics conference in September 2006. I can't find any paper to go with this abstract.

    http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/proj...ges-and-Genes/

    Hurro-Uratian Archaeology, Languages, and Genes: A Y Chromosome Model of Northeastern Caucasian Language Spread

    Roy King M.D., Ph.D. and Peter Underhill Ph.D.

    The abstract says in part:

    In this presentation, we will trace the geographic and temporal origins of the J lineages which have been associated with the demic expansion of agro-pastoral Neolithic economy in Southeastern Europe, Anatolia, the Levant, Mesopotamia and Iran. We will adduce evidence that Y-chromosome J lineages originated in the coastal area of the Eastern Mediterranean during the LGM [Last Glacial Maximum 20,000 BC] and then spread to Eastern Anatolia just prior to the Younger Dryas [a period of cold drought 10,800 to 9,600 BC]. With the advent of the Neolithic agricultural package, J2a-M410 then spread to Central and Western Anatolia, Crete, and Southern Italy, while J2b-M12 spread to Greece and the Balkans.

    Jim

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
      Here is an abstract from a presentation at a linguistics conference in September 2006. I can't find any paper to go with this abstract.

      http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/proj...ges-and-Genes/

      Hurro-Uratian Archaeology, Languages, and Genes: A Y Chromosome Model of Northeastern Caucasian Language Spread

      Roy King M.D., Ph.D. and Peter Underhill Ph.D.

      The abstract says in part:

      In this presentation, we will trace the geographic and temporal origins of the J lineages which have been associated with the demic expansion of agro-pastoral Neolithic economy in Southeastern Europe, Anatolia, the Levant, Mesopotamia and Iran. We will adduce evidence that Y-chromosome J lineages originated in the coastal area of the Eastern Mediterranean during the LGM [Last Glacial Maximum 20,000 BC] and then spread to Eastern Anatolia just prior to the Younger Dryas [a period of cold drought 10,800 to 9,600 BC]. With the advent of the Neolithic agricultural package, J2a-M410 then spread to Central and Western Anatolia, Crete, and Southern Italy, while J2b-M12 spread to Greece and the Balkans.

      Jim

      Thank you Jim that is fascinating! So the J lineages which became J2 did orginate in the coastal area of the Eastern Mediterranean. They could have been Natufians then. They spread to Eastern Anatolia around 10,800 to 9,600 BC. Is that just before the advent of agriculture then that they spread into Anatolia?




      Y-DNA: J2a*

      Comment


      • #4
        I can't speak for the authors, but another authoritative source (Steven Mithen, After the Ice, p. 49) says that people moved up into the foothills of the Taurus and Zagros mountains because the climate change in the Younger Dryas made that area more habitable. That was long before the beginning of agriculture, for which the accepted date seems to be about 7,000 BC.

        So yes, J, J1, and J2 to Anatolia before 10,800 BC, that's the theory.

        Jim

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
          I can't speak for the authors, but another authoritative source (Steven Mithen, After the Ice, p. 49) says that people moved up into the foothills of the Taurus and Zagros mountains because the climate change in the Younger Dryas made that area more habitable. That was long before the beginning of agriculture, for which the accepted date seems to be about 7,000 BC.

          So yes, J, J1, and J2 to Anatolia before 10,800 BC, that's the theory.

          Jim

          Hmmm I thought J1 and J though were more common in the Southern part of the Fertile Crescent and the Middle East. Maybe the original Natufians were J1s or Js and the people living in Anatolia who recieved agriculture very early on from them were J2s? After the J2s recieved agriculture since they lived in Anatolia they spread out much more quickly to the West and East bringing with them the new technologies.




          Y-DNA: J2a*

          Comment


          • #6
            What was the basis of Well's contention that the Natufians are related to J2. I read somewhere that Natufian artifacts were similar to those from east Africa. If so, this would make a relation to E3b more likely. On the other hand, it seems likely that J2 is related to Ugarit culture in what is now Lebanon. Anectdotal information about the National Geographic project on another thread indicated that J2 was found in ancient Phoenician remains.

            As for the location of Israel and Palestine, a "central" Levantine location probably is the best description. Nebels research on haplotypes of this area suggests both a J2 migration from the north and a J1 migration from the south. My guess is that there might have been a combined J1 and J2 migration from the east along the western extension of the Fertile Crescent. My guess is based on Nebels finding that some J1 and J2 haplotypes are shared by Arabs and Jews whereas the uniquely Arab haplotypes are primarily J1. Nebel suggested that the shared haplotypes had been there at least since the time of Canaan if not earlier (Natufians?), while the uniquely Arab haplotypes were the result of a J1 migration from the south beginning around 300 C.E and expanding with the rise of Islam. The issue is how to explain the presence of J1 in the area before the relatively recent migration from the south.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by J Man
              Hmmm I thought J1 and J though were more common in the Southern part of the Fertile Crescent and the Middle East. Maybe the original Natufians were J1s or Js and the people living in Anatolia who recieved agriculture very early on from them were J2s? After the J2s recieved agriculture since they lived in Anatolia they spread out much more quickly to the West and East bringing with them the new technologies.

              Y-DNA: J2a*
              Yes, J1 is more common in the south. (Don't know about J*, there isn't much of it.) But in the part of the abstract I didn't quote, the authors go on to say that they have an explanation for a subclade of J1 with DYS388=13 found only in Anatolia and adjacent areas east and northeast. That's my interest, as I also have that type.

              Jim

              Comment


              • #8
                [QUOTE=josh w.]What was the basis of Well's contention that the Natufians are related to J2. I read somewhere that Natufian artifacts were similar to those from east Africa. If so, this would make a relation to E3b more likely. On the other hand, it seems likely that J2 is related to Ugarit culture in what is now Lebanon. Anectdotal information about the National Geographic project on another thread indicated that J2 was found in ancient Phoenician remains.



                I do not know why Wells seems to just assume that the Natufians were haplogroup J2. I question his assumption because other geneticists have said that J2 originated in the Northern Middle East/Anatolia around 10,000-15,000 BC and the Natufians lived in the Central or Southern part. Like you said the Natufian artifacts show a relation to East African ones and that would likely support a connection to E3b. Maybe they were originally E3bs?

                Hmm Ugarit culture, I will have to check that out it sounds interesting.



                Y-DNA: J2a*

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                  Yes, J1 is more common in the south. (Don't know about J*, there isn't much of it.) But in the part of the abstract I didn't quote, the authors go on to say that they have an explanation for a subclade of J1 with DYS388=13 found only in Anatolia and adjacent areas east and northeast. That's my interest, as I also have that type.

                  Jim


                  Interesting maybe that sub clade of J1 did develope along with J2 in Anatolia.



                  Y-DNA: J2a*

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Correction----Ugarit was actually located on the Syrian coast just north of Lebanon. However its language is thought to be a precurser of Canaanite.

                    Jim's point about northern J1 is one of the reasons I think J1 and J2 followed similar migratory patterns, at least in some areas of the Middle East. That is, it probably is too simple to say that J2 migrated in the north and J1 in the south. Or that J1 is Semitic and J2 is Mediterranian.
                    Last edited by josh w.; 9 January 2007, 01:41 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by josh w.
                      Correction----Ugarit was actually located on the Syrian coast just north of Lebanon. However its language is thought to be a precurser of Canaanite.

                      Jim's point about northern J1 is one of the reasons I think J1 and J2 followed similar migratory patterns, at least in some areas of the Middle East. That is, it probably is too simple to say that J2 migrated in the north and J1 in the south. Or that J1 is Semitic and J2 is Mediterranian.
                      Right, I'm aware of 18 cases of J1 with DYS388=13, and none are Jewish or Arab.

                      Jim

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by josh w.
                        Correction----Ugarit was actually located on the Syrian coast just north of Lebanon. However its language is thought to be a precurser of Canaanite.

                        Jim's point about northern J1 is one of the reasons I think J1 and J2 followed similar migratory patterns, at least in some areas of the Middle East. That is, it probably is too simple to say that J2 migrated in the north and J1 in the south. Or that J1 is Semitic and J2 is Mediterranian.

                        If they followed similar migratory paths then why are there a lot more J2s in Europe than J1s?



                        Y-DNA: J2a*

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thats why I said that the distinctions were too simple rather than incorrect. It is the case that J1 is predominantly found in North Africa and J2 in southern Europe. My guess is that the two subclades followed overlapping paths as far west as the Levantine shore. It appears that all Middle Eastern countries between the Zagros mountains and the Levantine shore have significant percentages of both J1 and J2 although the mix varies country by country. This is clearly the case for Lebanon, Palestine and Israel. Further west one of the subclades tends to dominate. Of course there are some J2s in North Africa (Carthage?) and J1s in Europe including Jim's subclade.
                          Last edited by josh w.; 9 January 2007, 08:02 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by josh w.
                            Thats why I said that the distinctions were too simple rather than incorrect. It is the case that J1 is predominantly found in North Africa and J2 in southern Europe. My guess is that the two subclades followed overlapping paths as far west as the Levantine shore. It appears that all Middle Eastern countries between the Zagros mountains and the Levantine shore have significant percentages of both J1 and J2 although the mix varies country by country. This is clearly the case for Lebanon, Palestine and Israel. Further west one of the subclades tends to dominate. Of course there are some J2s in North Africa (Carthage?) and J1s in Europe including Jim's subclade.


                            Interesting, alright according to what you have said it seems that then once J2 and J1 hit the Mediterranean coast in the Levant they then went different ways. Most of the J2s went North and most of the the J1s went South. Why then though do most of the geneticists say they originated in different parts of the Near East? Are you saying that both J2 and J1 originated in the same area originally and then travelled together to the coast and then seperate ways?



                            Y-DNA: J2a*

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              From what I have read (e.g. Stephen Oppenheimer), J began near the Zagros mountains in eastern Iraq. There is no accepted theory of the relationship between J1 and J2. DiGiacomo suggested that J1 arose out of J2, but others theorized the opposite-- that J2 arose out of J1. If either of these views are correct there would have been a time when J1 and J2 followed similar paths. Of course if J1 and J2 developed independently they might not follow similar paths. It is the case that J2 followed a northerly path and J1 followed a more southerly one. However the paths were not that far apart as evidenced by the Middle Eastern countries were both are present to a significant degree.

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