The Proto-Indo-Europeans and Y-Haplogroup R

[Haganus]

R b1

With interests I read the messages about R b1. I understand that
R b 1 is the most important element of the West european population
and it has an origin of the Cro-Magnons. R b 1 also is the main DNA
element of the Scandinavians, Dutchs and Germans.
It has been supposed that Indo-European languages arrived in
Scandinavia without immigration. Only a cultural adoption?

But just I read the messages of the Familytree about the origin of R b1. It has been originated in East-Europa. But where are the descendants of the Cro-Magnons and Aurignac people? They probably had R b1 and related to the Basks. The Cro-Magnons were typically western/nordic men. Maybe the
Faelish and nordic races are descendants of them.
The ancient inhabitants of the Canarian islands, the Guanchos, had
the same shap of skull as the Cro-Magnons had. They had fair hair
and blue eyes. Is this a prove that the Cro-Magnons had fair hair
and blue eyes too?

Another question: I read about the origin of the DNA of Anglo-Saxons
Frisians and Vikings. Probably it has an origin in North east of Germany.
I supposed that their origin must be in the Jastorf Culture in West Germany
and Denmark. When the DNA of the Anglo-Saxons had been arisen in
Northeast Germany? It is a remarkable thing that the Baltic and Germanic
languages share a lot of common charistics. Also in their onomatology.
So it plausible that the Goths did not come from Sweden, but from
East-Germany. Who has read: Die Gothen und Skandinavien" written
by Rolf Hachmann.

Erik

[Downer101]

Perhaps your right.. Maybe R1b is truly Aurignacian.. I am a proud Indigenous European.. Also, I found a site on these Paleolithic-Copper Age European Tribes and Shamanism.. EXCELLENTLY FASCINATING IT IS!
Early European Tribes

[derinos]

Language is cultural not genetic .

Calder (in his book "Timescale") points to two, perhaps three, migrations (10,000 to 6000 ybp) related to the lactose-tolerance mutation (which allowed relatively rapid, nutritionally-elitist migrations,living off cattle and their milk). One was of semitic speakers, one of IE -speakers,( based on some archaeology,archaeolinguistics and genetic studies of the sixties).

He calls these migrations "Breakout of the Cowboys", one of which left Iran and reached Ireland a millennium later, carrying the IE "sacred Cow" term ("Bu-feen") into Gaelic.
The lactose-tolerance mutation is a well-define dominant autosomal one, independent of the YDNA and mt identifiers. Whatever Y and Mt the carriers of the two language groups had, ( and they could have been R, I or IJ mixes by then), logically all we know they had in common was the lactose-tolerance mutation.

[Stevo]

Thank you. Very nice the Y hap N-maps !

The spread of R1a should take this into account. Why wouldn't some N3 - TAT follow the hypothetical Y Haplogroup R Proto-Indo-Europeans ? That's another problem for the R PIE hypothesis.

Why should "some N3 - TAT follow the hypothetical Y Haplogroup R Proto-Indo-Europeans"?

Why not G or J or I or C or E or or?

I don't see that what you suggested is some kind of logical necessity or poses any problem for the R PIE hypothesis.

BTW, feel free to knock yourself out contradicting what I have written in this thread. I have been trying to get away from posting in the FTDNA Forum for awhile, so I don't plan on sticking around to answer (for much longer, anyway).

However, if you would like to suggest that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were y-hap J or something like that, why not start your own thread?

Frankly, I'm beginning to lose interest in the whole PIE business. If they ever actually existed, the PIEs lived so long ago it seems it will never be possible to know who the heck they were. That is why anybody - including me - can freely speculate about them and make it sound plausible.

It's kind of a futile field of endeavor.

[Bracari]

Read the study for yourself here.

Take a look at the distribution maps on page 3.

The bulk of the N3 population lives in Asia. The Tat C mutation (N3) has been found in some of the remains of the 2,000-year-old Egyin Gol Necropolis in Mongolia.

Of course, y-hap N is not at all the subject of this thread.

Thank you. Very nice the Y hap N-maps !

The spread of R1a should take this into account. Why wouldn't some N3 - TAT follow the hypothetical Y Haplogroup R Proto-Indo-Europeans ? That's another problem for the R PIE hypothesis.

[Stevo]

Read the study for yourself here.

Take a look at the distribution maps on page 3.

The bulk of the N3 population lives in Asia. The Tat C mutation (N3) has been found in some of the remains of the 2,000-year-old Egyin Gol Necropolis in Mongolia.

Of course, y-hap N is not at all the subject of this thread.

[Bracari]

Just in time the new study about the Y chromosome haplogroup N !

Some interesting comments on
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/die...9784525148670/

"No one, to my knowledge, has argued that haplogroup N originated in Europe. What has been previously noted, by at least one of the the authors of this paper, is that N3 is more diverse in Europe than Siberia, suggesting N3 most recently spread west to east. Without having read the paper, I fail to see how the diversity data jibes with the suggestion that N3 originated in China. Apart from that piece of apparent speculation, the abstract says that N lineages in Europe are very old and different from Asian N lineages, which, as I've noted, is not what Dienekes was really hoping for".

[Stevo]

I believe this to be false, but hey if that's it that's it; I could be wrong.

Why?

I think you are perfectly right to question authority and arguments from authority, but one must admit that the study linked above was authored by some of the heaviest hitters in the field of genetics (and it is the very latest research on the subject).

Besides, you are aware, are you not, that N and O are closely connected and that O has its locus in SE Asia?

You know, too, don't you, that Q and R are descendants of P (M45), but N and O are not? N and O, like P, are descendants of K. Apparently N and O arose among Ks that went south into SE Asia. P probably arose among Ks that went further north into Central Asia, which is why Q moved across the Bering Strait into North America, and N wasn't there to do so.

[Downer101]

I believe this to be false, but hey if that's it that's it; I could be wrong.

[lgmayka]

N's didn't come from Mongolia, but came from Central Asia near the Native American and European M45 marker.

The cited paper's abstract says:
---
The most frequent subclade N3, arose probably in the region of present day China...
---

[Downer101]

N's didn't come from Mongolia, but came from Central Asia near the Native American and European M45 marker. They are another native European people, just carrying Tat-C because it was a mutation from living in the cold for so long. The East-Asian in Finno-Ugrics would've come from Siberian Tatars, or maybe a more recent admixture.

[Noaide]

Here's the abstract from a new study in which Rootsi was involved, and it contradicts part of what you wrote above.

Can you please tell me how far back the presence in Europe of a hg have to be to be considered European by you? As I understand the age of only N3 among the Finnic-Ugric groups is estimated to be past the 10 000 year marker.

Noaide

[Stevo]

The same happened with others haplogroups in others ecological areas, like the N. The N haplogroup specialized in the Boreal habitat, mixed with others haplogroups and concentrated there. They weren't "invaders", actually they moved from the west to the East, from Europe to Siberia.
"The first myth about haplogroup N I want to burst right away, most of it in Europe did not come in recorded history from the Huns and the Mongols! (The Hungarians have N at less than 1%). It might as well have been an expansion from Europe eastwards towards Siberia because the diversity of the subclade N3 is higher in Europe than in Siberia. I quote Rootsi at University of Tartu, Estonia who is leading the research on hg N".
http://www.familytreedna.com/(yhsbu1ih1ja2zf55j0i1ci45)/public/N%20Y-DNA%20Project/index.aspx



RCO

Here's the abstract from a new study in which Rootsi was involved, and it contradicts part of what you wrote above.

A counter-clockwise northern route of the Y-chromosome haplogroup N from
Southeast Asia towards Europe.

Rootsi S, Zhivotovsky LA, Baldovic M, Kayser M, Kutuev IA, Khusainova R,
Bermisheva MA, Gubina M, Fedorova SA, Ilumae AM, Khusnutdinova EK, Voevoda MI, Osipova LP, Stoneking M, Lin AA, Ferak V, Parik J, Kivisild T, Underhill PA, Villems R.

Department of Evolutionary Biology, University of Tartu and Estonian
Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia.

A large part of Y chromosome lineages in East European and East Asian human
populations belong to haplogroup (hg) NO, which is composed of two sister
clades N-M231 and O-M175. The O-clade is relatively old (around 30 thousand years (ky)) and encompasses the vast majority of east and Southeast Asian male lineages, as well as significant proportion of those in Oceanian males. On the other hand, our detailed analysis of hg N suggests that its high frequency in east Europe is due to its more recent expansion westward on a counter-clock northern route from inner Asia/southern Siberia, approximately 12-14 ky ago. The widespread presence of hg N in Siberia, together with its absence in Native Americans, implies its spread happened after the founder event for the Americas. The most frequent subclade N3, arose probably in the region of present day China, and subsequently experienced serial bottlenecks in Siberia and secondary expansions in eastern Europe. Another branch, N2, forms two distinctive subclusters of STR haplotypes, Asian (N2-A) and European (N2-E), the latter now mostly distributed in Finno-Ugric and related populations. These phylogeographic patterns provide evidence consistent with male-mediated counter-clockwise late Pleistocene-Holocene migratory trajectories toward Northwestern Europe from an ancestral East Asian source of Paleolithic heritage.

European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 6 December 2006;
doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201748.

PMID: 17149388 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

The study can be found online here.

[Bracari]

In historical times Civilizations and Empires had sometimes preferences for types of habitats and ecological patterns. The Mediterranean range of action was many times a self-centered and self-contained world. Types of wheat, grapes, vegetables, animals and olive trees had ecological limits and they wouldn't frequently go, survive or desire the North, cold, wet places. The historical registers show this. In Iberia the Moors couldn't build a civilization in the "green" areas of Northern Iberia because their "mode of production" wasn't centered in that lands, climate and vegetation found there. The Christians had a safe reservoir of people in the North to carry on the Reconquista. The Moors were in Al-Andalus and not in the old Roman Gallaecia or Asturias.

Somehow R1b found a way to settle and survive in the Western Atlantic Façade of Europe, probably in areas not strategically interesting to the others old colonizers of Europe. They found an ecological niche where the others weren't so interested or couldn't settle, but they mixed and created new populations there. The same happened in many others places and situations like in the Americas, the Portuguese and Spanish weren't interested in North America in the 16th Century because they were in the South and Central America.

The same happened with others haplogroups in others ecological areas, like the N. The N haplogroup specialized in the Boreal habitat, mixed with others haplogroups and concentrated there. They weren't "invaders", actually they moved from the west to the East, from Europe to Siberia.
"The first myth about haplogroup N I want to burst right away, most of it in Europe did not come in recorded history from the Huns and the Mongols! (The Hungarians have N at less than 1%). It might as well have been an expansion from Europe eastwards towards Siberia because the diversity of the subclade N3 is higher in Europe than in Siberia. I quote Rootsi at University of Tartu, Estonia who is leading the research on hg N".
http://www.familytreedna.com/(yhsbu1ih1ja2zf55j0i1ci45)/public/N%20Y-DNA%20Project/index.aspx

And there's a possibility that the phenotype of the first Rs were similar to the Central Asian populations, similar to the O, P and Q pattern, with Mongoloid features before they arrived in Central-Eastern Europe.
"One important observation that has been made about the frequently occurring subgroup R1a1 is that it appears to be very recently introduced in both the western and eastern extremes of its distribution: all the Haplogroup R1a1 Y-chromosomes found among the Czechs of Central Europe and the Khoton people of Mongolia coalesce to a common patrilineal ancestor who should have lived well within the bounds of the Neolithic, and possibly even within the bounds of historical time" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)

So perhaps the Y haplogroup R could not have had any original relation to the modern European phenotype and there's no guarantee about their original language to had had also any relation to the Proto Indo-European language before they arrived in the eastern parts of Central Europe too.
We just don't know what exactly happened.

RCO

[Bracari]

This is not true. When steppe invaders decide to stay around (rather than collecting their pillage and returning home), they have done so successfully. In recent times, the Magyars took over Hungary from the Slavs and imposed Magyar, and the Turks took over Turkey from the native Anatolians and imposed Turkish. In these two cases, Indo-European actually lost ground to Uralic and Altaic.

And of course, the Balts imposed their Indo-European language family on the earlier Finnic peoples of the Baltic coast. Only a few Livonians survive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_language

Turks and Magyars were a group of mixed haplogroups. Where were the Turks and Magyars ancestors during the hypothetical R invasion of Europe. Scattered. I wouldn't feel confident to associate any specific haplogroup with a specific language or ethnic group in Europe. The haplogroups are the substratum of languages and ethnic groups but today as yesterday, they were extremely mixed in Europe. I don't know who was the first haplogroup (from the modern existing ones) to arrive in Iberia and with what language. The same could be said to the Balkans, Central Europe, Scandinavia. Human movements and immigrations also can be peaceful and without historical registers we can't definitely guess what happened in that remote past with the fragments that we have nowadays. We don't know the exactly phenotype or the language from the first known Haplogroup Mutant (male-Y or female-mt) Founders and where exactly they were born.