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The Proto-Indo-Europeans and Y-Haplogroup R

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Downer101
    J actually comes from F, which makes alot of sense for Aurignacian. F is from the Middle East, and it is the father of haplogroup P as well. Check this Y-haplogroup family tree.


    Yup I know thanks for the chart. Haplogroups I and J are fairly closely related. Both I and J come from IJ which is the S22 SNP which is in turn derived from F. Some S22 probably migrated into Europe and became I while those that stayed in the Middle East became J and came later.



    Y-DNA: J2a*

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  • Downer101
    replied
    J actually comes from F, which makes alot of sense for Aurignacian. F is from the Middle East, and it is the father of haplogroup P as well. Check this Y-haplogroup family tree.

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Downer101
    Not from the south, I meant from the middle East in compared to the Central Asian Gravettian culture in the north/(South Siberia).. Maybe instead of the Gravettian culture, I am beginning to think the I's, F's, E's, J's, etc. brang the Aurignacian culture.. I believe this because the Cro-Magnons were YDNA haplogroup F and mtDNA haplogroup N..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-magnon

    Also, take a gander at the Gravettian culture. It was more snowy. There is also evidence that it was in Eastern Europe. I believe Genographic mixed it all up, but they had the basic idea. These are the same mammoth bone tents that were found in Ukraine, in the Eastern European Gravettian culture.


    Here is a happy Cro-Magnon from the Aurignacian culture..


    Interesting thoughts and cool pictures Downer

    I remember reading in Stephen Oppenheimer's The Real Eve that he had a hypothesis that the original male Aurignacian haplogroup was J which he calls Jahangir. He pairs J up with mtDNA haplogroup U5 which is very old and is considered by some to represent the earliest haplogroup in Europe. J has a very high frequency and diversity in the Zagros mountains which some cinsider to be the homeland of the Aurignacian culture. According to Oppenheimer Y-DNA haplogroup Js Mediterranean distribution mirrors the spread of mtDNA haplogroups U5 and U6 50,000 years ago. Now I know the vast majority of dates are younger but some methods gave an age for J of around 37,000 years ago in Europe, 55,000 years ago in Iran and 62,000 years ago in India. This could all very easily also be false as most dates give J a much younger age. Who really knows?







    Y-DNA: J2a*

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  • Downer101
    replied
    Not from the south, I meant from the middle East in compared to the Central Asian Gravettian culture in the north/(South Siberia).. Maybe instead of the Gravettian culture, I am beginning to think the I's, F's, E's, J's, etc. brang the Aurignacian culture.. I believe this because the Cro-Magnons were YDNA haplogroup F and mtDNA haplogroup N..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-magnon

    Also, take a gander at the Gravettian culture. It was more snowy. There is also evidence that it was in Eastern Europe. I believe Genographic mixed it all up, but they had the basic idea. These are the same mammoth bone tents that were found in Ukraine, in the Eastern European Gravettian culture.


    Here is a happy Cro-Magnon from the Aurignacian culture..
    Last edited by Downer101; 6 December 2006, 07:24 AM.

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  • nas
    replied
    Prehistoric Options.

    Originally posted by Downer101
    Without an earlier time of of entrance by Proto-Indo-Europeans, it would be impossible for the cultures after Aurignacian and Gravettian to exist. We would have to skip the Mesolithic and Neolithic, which would be totally biased. When one looks at these things, one must consider all options..
    Hello,
    Prehistoric people came to Sicily by a landbridge.
    So,it was possible to come to Italy and Spain from the South.
    I think???
    Nas.

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  • Downer101
    replied
    Without an earlier time of of entrance by Proto-Indo-Europeans, it would be impossible for the cultures after Aurignacian and Gravettian to exist. We would have to skip the Mesolithic and Neolithic, which would be totally biased. When one looks at these things, one must consider all options..

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by Bracari
    Steppe people like the Huns and Mongols were always limited in historical times to a rapid outburst without linguistic or deep cultural consequences.
    This is not true. When steppe invaders decide to stay around (rather than collecting their pillage and returning home), they have done so successfully. In recent times, the Magyars took over Hungary from the Slavs and imposed Magyar, and the Turks took over Turkey from the native Anatolians and imposed Turkish. In these two cases, Indo-European actually lost ground to Uralic and Altaic.

    And of course, the Balts imposed their Indo-European language family on the earlier Finnic peoples of the Baltic coast. Only a few Livonians survive:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_language
    Last edited by lgmayka; 5 December 2006, 08:01 PM.

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by Johnserrat
    Wish I had access to publishers' pre-circulated copies of books!
    I don't either, ordinarily. In this particular case, a publishing employee put the precirculation copy onto a used-books sales site, and I snapped it up, partly just to see what a precirculation copy looks like.

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  • Bracari
    replied
    There's not sufficient evidence to prove a invasion or onslaught theory. It could be many others elements and factors

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Indo-European
    Nevertheless, the Kurgan hypothesis recently fell out of favor with some archaeologists who, beginning with Colin Renfrew (1987), pointed out that there just is not a Europe-wide archaeological horizon that corresponds to this putative cultural change. If the cultural imprint was strong enough to replace languages, then they claim it should have left some trace on material culture as well - although the actual correspondence between linguistic change and material culture is disputed. Peter Bellwood (2001, 2004) has developed a general hypothesis that major language phyla are likely to be associated with the Neolithic Revolution. His reasoning is first, that the spread of the Neolithic toolkit is more likely to occur through demic diffusion than through cultural diffusion, and second, that a sedentary population relying on domesticated plants and animals will grow much faster than a nomadic, foraging population. Thus, the populations located in the original hearth areas will grow and expand, carrying their language with them. Bellwood (2004) therefore maintains that the Indo-European languages were brought to Europe during the Neolithic, and not the Bronze Age. This theory is disputed by linguistic evidence however, for example the reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European words for the wheel and metal working, technological developments that arose much later than the Neolithic.

    And only horses can't defeat tribes in florests and mountains. How would be Central Europe at that time ? Only in the steppes or grasslands horses can be decisive, but and as we have seen in the Americas, in the Pampas, or in the Guaicuru Tribe and in the North American Prairies the natives have always learned to take horses from the invaders.

    Steppe people like the Huns and Mongols were always limited in historical times to a rapid outburst without linguistic or deep cultural consequences.

    Because of the restriction of the method and data, we can’t draw a final conclusion on the questions mentioned about the Proto-Indo-Europeans and Y- Haplogroup R.

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  • Johnserrat
    replied
    Igmayka: I have no difficulty with the origins of mtDNA and Y-DNA european diversity. The time frame is crucial to the issue of whether or not R1b ancestors from Central Asia spread IE languages by means of invasion or whether R1bs adopted IE languages after having already lived in Europe for tens of thousands of years. I believe that is what this thread was meant to address and I may have simply misunderstood your previous post.

    If R1b came to Europe in multiple waves, and one of those waves spread IE languages, would we not see archeological evidence for such an event? There is extensive archeological evidence of settlement all over Europe relatively quickly after the LGM. It would have taken a very large army to conquer and replace an indigenous population over such a vast and diverse territory, much of which was heavily forested at the time.

    I too look forward to reading Wells' new book, although I have heard that he does not provide detailed data from the GP as hoped. Wish I had access to publishers' pre-circulated copies of books!

    John

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by Johnserrat
    In terms of Neolithic influences, I do not believe there is any research that shows levels in excess of 20%. If you do have such research, please provide the links.
    Many research papers show strong evidence of DNA diffusion from the Balkans and Middle East into Europe. The only caveat is that most such papers, without evidence, assume that such diffusion must have occurred during the spread of farming technology, rather than earlier. Here are a few examples:

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../351143a0.html

    http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/17/11008

    http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=000...3E2.0.CO%3B2-3

    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

    All you need to do is go to http://www.scholar.google.com and search for

    demic diffusion

    Once again, I do not subscribe to the view that this spread of DNA from the Balkans and Middle East into Europe must have taken place during the Neoilithic Revolution. Most of the 'demic diffusion' advocates simply assume this point with no evidence whatsoever. Rather, I myself suggest that this migration of DNA into Europe from the eastern Mediterranean took place much earlier--indeed, as early as the original Paleolithic colonization of Europe.

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by MMaddi
    Did R1b arrive in Europe around the time of LGM or slightly after, which made it easier to replace the existing yDNA haplogroups in Europe (probably originating from the Near East and Balkans or possibly north Africa), since the population in Europe would have been small at that time? Or did R1b arrive in Europe significantly after the Ice Age had ended, which would be more in line with McEwan's estimates for the haplogroup ages?
    Since McEwan's estimates must be scaled according to a fundamental mutation rate which is still under debate, their relative values have greater weight than their absolute values. So for example, it is quite possible that all of his numbers need to be multiplied by 1.5. This does not, of course, change the fact that R1b is much younger than E3b, J2, or K2.

    Thus, I agree with you that a first wave of R1b may have swept across Europe shortly after the LGM, overwhelming earlier Europeans or preempting their emergence from refugia. But note that only a later wave from the east could have brought the Indo-European languages. Note also that due to the random spread of haplotypes over time, the most identifiable clusters of R1b are also likely to be the youngest--i.e., the latecomers, not the first wave.

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  • lgmayka
    replied
    Originally posted by Johnserrat
    McEwan's disclaimer is worth noting:
    ...
    In terms of Neolithic influences, I do not believe there is any research that shows levels in excess of 20%. If you do have such research, please provide the links.
    1) McEwan's disclaimer simply allows for the possibility that R1b, or any other haplogroup, narrowed down to a single patrilineal line and then rebirthed itself. This is indeed theoretically possible but is certainly not the most 'parsimonious' (a la Occam's Razor) explanation.

    2) The issue was not of a time frame or cultural change ('Neolithic') but of a geographical genetic source--namely, the Balkans and Middle East. Since Spencer Wells' new book has now been officially released I can now feel free to quote the jaw-dropping statement in chapter 4 of the version I have (that was precirculated to publishers):
    ---
    At the moment it appears that most mtDNA diversity in Europe came from the Middle East, while the large R1a and R1b clans on the male side have an ultimate origin in Central Asia. Reconciling these stories is one of the goals of the Genographic Project.
    ---

    In the precirculated version, this was on page 102, in the section titled Deeper Still. I cannot purchase the final version since I put in on my Christmas list.

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by lgmayka
    Genetics tells us three stories:
    1) European mtDNA shows strong influence from Balkan and Middle Eastern DNA.
    2) European autosomal DNA shows strong influence from Balkan and Middle Eastern DNA.
    3) European yDNA shows very little influence from Balkan and Middle Eastern DNA, and instead an overwhelming influence from central-west Asia.

    Either an army of women came from the Middle East, killed most of the women of Europe, and took their place, or--far more likely--an army of men came from western Asia, killed most of the men of Europe, and took their place.
    You make a very strong point, which I have to agree with. This is in line with Ellen Levy-Coffman's new paper in JOGG, which has been discussed on various lists in the last few days. In my mind your point is indisputable, the only question being the timeline for all this.

    Did R1b arrive in Europe around the time of LGM or slightly after, which made it easier to replace the existing yDNA haplogroups in Europe (probably originating from the Near East and Balkans or possibly north Africa), since the population in Europe would have been small at that time? Or did R1b arrive in Europe significantly after the Ice Age had ended, which would be more in line with McEwan's estimates for the haplogroup ages? In that case we're talking about major wars resulting in large-scale population replacement. I would think that there would be some kind of legend or folklore we'd hear about regading that kind of genocidal cataclysm. So I lean more to the first possibility, of an earlier arrival of R1b in Europe.

    Of course, your statement above about an "army of women from the Middle East" could be true. Maybe those Amazon tribes of women warriors were more numerous and powerful than the legends say! (Just kidding.)

    Mike Maddi
    Last edited by MMaddi; 5 December 2006, 12:10 PM.

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  • J Man
    replied
    Just thought I would add this in as well I thought these sites were interesting. I do not know how reliable Wikipedia really is but these are interesting none the less.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y...NA_haplogroups

    Here is a snipet from the second site:

    Groups descended from Haplogroup F (GR)
    The groups descending from haplogroup F are found in some 90% of the world's population, but almost exclusively outside of sub-Saharan Africa. The mutation of IJ corresponds to a wave of migration out of the Middle East or Western Asia some 45 kya that subsequently spread into Europe (Cro-Magnon). Haplogroup G originated in the Middle East or Caucasus, or perhaps further east as far as Pakistan some 30 kya, and spread to Europe with the Neolithic Revolution. Haplogroup H probably occurred in India some 30-40 kya, and remains prevalent there, spreading westwards in historical times with the gypsy migration. Haplogroup K probably originated in southwestern Asia and spread widely to Africa, Eurasia, Australia and the South Pacific.


    Note that haplogroup IJ is the haplogroup that both haplogroups I and J stem from.



    Y-DNA: J2a*

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