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American Indian admixture in White Americans

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  • speculating about that U5....

    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    Being that A, B C, D and some X are only accepted as Indian at the moment, It's possible that a European woman married into the tribe and male line is Indian. No telling unless this person can show you factual paper connecting to the Tuscarora. This tribe left Eastern NC and became the 6th Nation of NY due to Indian slavery. Now is it possible they took an Indian slave to England, yes. Maybe this person has some kind of slave papers from ship records.
    Then too, maybe that U5 came from the Solutreans (ha ha). There was that "Solutrean Hypotheseis" that Ice Age migrants from Europe (France/Spain), 15,000 to 17,000 years ago, crossed the Atlantic Ocean along an ice front and brought a certain stone technology with them. See Cactus Hill, VA archaeological site.
    Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 5 January 2011, 11:16 PM.

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    • Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
      Then too, maybe that U5 came from the Solutreans (ha ha). There was that "Solutrean Hypotheseis" that Ice Age migrants from Europe (France/Spain), 15,000 to 17,000 years ago, crossed the Atlantic Ocean along an ice front and brought a certain stone technology with them. See Cactus Hill, VA archaeological site.
      Anything is possible. We dont have paper back that far to say. Most tribal members are not giving up their DNA and their paper only goes back so far anyway.

      If your match is claiming Tuscarora, He/She would need to back it up with paper. I have seen and have people listed as Indian (No Tribe) that are not enrolled tribal members in the US. This is also the norm south of the border of US/Mexico. It is rare that someone listed outside tribal enrollment will find records stating tribe. Without a piece of paper stating tribe, no way to prove tribe.

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      • no cooperation = lots of guessing

        Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
        Anything is possible. We dont have paper back that far to say. Most tribal members are not giving up their DNA and their paper only goes back so far anyway.

        If your match is claiming Tuscarora, He/She would need to back it up with paper. I have seen and have people listed as Indian (No Tribe) that are not enrolled tribal members in the US. This is also the norm south of the border of US/Mexico. It is rare that someone listed outside tribal enrollment will find records stating tribe. Without a piece of paper stating tribe, no way to prove tribe.
        Since that matching person does not cooperate, then they are exposed to the guess work of others. The maternal Tuscarora origin could be just made up; or it could be from the original Carolinas homeland of the tribe; or maybe from New York state around the old British fort of Fort Niagara; or from their reservation in Ontario, Canada. In the latter two cases, a woman in her maternal line may have been taken back to England. Well, I give up on the matter now.

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        • Try contacting your match again. Maybe they updated/changed their email address. Your match may have been mistaken about a Tuscarora maternal line. MTDNA U is European. Maybe her/his genealogy stops at Tuscarora?

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          • Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
            Since that matching person does not cooperate, then they are exposed to the guess work of others. The maternal Tuscarora origin could be just made up; or it could be from the original Carolinas homeland of the tribe; or maybe from New York state around the old British fort of Fort Niagara; or from their reservation in Ontario, Canada. In the latter two cases, a woman in her maternal line may have been taken back to England. Well, I give up on the matter now.

            I have people who dont want to cooperate either. I think everyone has this problem in general with some of their matches. Worse is with FF. Yes there are people that make things up. There is no telling if your match's claim to the Tuscarora is true or false. Possible they did not update their email? Maybe wait a few months and try contacting them again

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            • Originally posted by kawashkar View Post
              Well, if somebody has A,B,C, D or X certainly chances are they are Amerindian descendents... although they could be Japanese descendents.

              But if they don't have those mtDNA haplogroups, it doen't mean they aren't descendents of Amerindians! They could descend from an European women by the female line and an European male from the masculine line, and still descend from American Indians!
              True on both your statements but PDHOTLEN was specifically stating they have an MT-DNA haplogroup U match that claims Tuscarora Tribe. Anyone who claims tribe should be able to back up their claim with paper. Their match has not produced paper and their DNA is not showing Indian on their direct maternal line.

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              • RE Mitosearch match

                I suggest that someone try to contact this U5 Tuscarora claim. Her ID on Mitosearch is "GMNSC" (Mary Elizabeth Mills > Eliza Blackstone). Or you can see where I go there with my own "G986T". There is a lot of junk there, so scroll way down until you see the small section of zero differences. This entry has been there for years now. I just use the default when I log in.
                Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 8 January 2011, 07:55 PM.

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                • RE that Tuscarora U5

                  Since that U5 Tuscarora with my HVR1 match will obviously never be upgraded above the HVR1 level, all I can do is speculate about it. It looks like she (Eliza Blackstone) had been an Indian for more than one generation. So a mother or grandmother was probably taken captive during the French and Indian War in the 1750's. The easiest source of captives was from among the Pennsylvania German settlers, since they were poorly defended. The Scots-Irish were armed with long rifles and often took the fight to the Indians. But the Germans usually had nothing more than smooth bore muskets, used for hunting for the pot. But that's not to exclude a British source for the lineage; just probable odds. Captives were traded among the tribes, so it doesn't mean that the Tuscarora themselves did the raiding that kidnapped her or her mother/grandmother. Well, that's my two cents worth. Anybody have a better idea? There is an obvious Pennsylvania German HVR1 match on the Sorenson website.
                  Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 9 January 2011, 01:08 PM.

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                  • "GMNSC"
                    PHIL THERE ARE BLACKSTONE RELATIONS AT THE SAPONI SITE .. THIS NAME WAS WELL KNOWN TO MY GREAT GRANDMA AS AN INDIAN SIRNAME . I DO NOT KNOW IF THEY WERE RELATED TO HER OR HOW. BUT SHE DID FOR SURE SAY THAT WAS AN INDIAN NAME. AS IT IS THE MAIN STEEET IN FRESNO CALIFORNIA AND SHE TOLD ME IT WAS INDIAN NAME, AND I WAS NEARLY 20 AND HAD MOVED TO FRESNO WHEN SHE TOLD ME THAT.
                    SO I WILL BELIEVE THAT LADY AND HER FAMILY AND NOT THE REST!
                    DO WHAT YOU WILL.

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                    • Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
                      Since that U5 Tuscarora with my HVR1 match will obviously never be upgraded above the HVR1 level, all I can do is speculate about it. It looks like she (Eliza Blackstone) had been an Indian for more than one generation. So a mother or grandmother was probably taken captive during the French and Indian War in the 1750's. The easiest source of captives was from among the Pennsylvania German settlers, since they were poorly defended. The Scots-Irish were armed with long rifles and often took the fight to the Indians. But the Germans usually had nothing more than smooth bore muskets, used for hunting for the pot. But that's not to exclude a British source for the lineage; just probable odds. Captives were traded among the tribes, so it doesn't mean that the Tuscarora themselves did the raiding that kidnapped her or her mother/grandmother. Well, that's my two cents worth. Anybody have a better idea? There is an obvious Pennsylvania German HVR1 match on the Sorenson website.
                      I know nothing about the Blackstone surname but you can google find the Tuscarora web and call them or email them to ask about the surname.

                      Without seeing proof of your matches family tree and where they claim to connect to the Tuscarora there's no telling if what this person is posting is factual or not

                      If your DNA match is to others with Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry, I would think the U haplogroup is European DNA and if your match does have Tuscarora could be from another line????

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                      • Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
                        I suggest that someone try to contact this U5 Tuscarora claim. Her ID on Mitosearch is "GMNSC" (Mary Elizabeth Mills > Eliza Blackstone). Or you can see where I go there with my own "G986T". There is a lot of junk there, so scroll way down until you see the small section of zero differences. This entry has been there for years now. I just use the default when I log in.

                        I looked at her mitosearch and it states last known maternal ancestor is Mary Elizabeth Mills- country of origin England

                        why she wrote at the bottom regarding additional info Native American, Tuscarora Eliza Blackstone, I have no Idea.

                        Is Eliza Blackstone supposed to be the same person as Mary Elizabeth Mills???? Was Blackstone her maiden name? married name?

                        Eliza is a name that does not have to be short for Elizabeth. Many used the nickname of Betsy for Elizabeth.

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                        • I stated my case...

                          I have nothing more to add or subtract about this Tuscarora U5 HVR1 match. But I've read history books on the subject of the French and Indian War, and know whereof I speak.

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                          • Hi PDHOTLEN
                            I remember an old thread about your U5 where purpleflowers said she was your U5 match. The Blackstone Tuscarora is probably hers. But since it was updated to say Mills from England, then your HVR1 match has an English mtdna.
                            Your other match, from Sorenson, is Pennsylvania German. The Pennsylvania German mtdna line could be Dutch, English, German, Swiss, or French.
                            I have Scots-Irish Pennsylvania ancestry on my maternal grandfather's side that included one German wife (circa 1800). I had no real knowledge of Pennsylvania Germans until after researching my paternal grandmother's side from New Jersey. Most of the Pennsylvania Germans first lived in New Jersey (Amwell/German Valley). I have an immigrant ancestor who was half English and half Dutch. Some descendants married Penn Germans. I have a French Huguenot ancestor who married an English person, their descendants married into the Reformed Dutch and Penn Germans in the USA. Some Mennonites from Switzerland had English and Dutch ancestry.

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                            • Not mine!

                              my match is Alle / Allegewi or just maybe metis .. but metis was male whites and indian females too. someone spoke french anyway in Oconostota family .
                              and no french matches yet . only records of a french possible metis wife and full cherokee wife and a white wife from england who die after having Lucy who married a man named Ward father of Nancy ward and it appears ....who's dna turns out to be haplogroup C.... <LOL> and there is lots of haplogroup C's in England' old world . and maybe that C had always been there because of it's distribution.. check out dna forums where haplogroup C is being found !
                              . no they got some issues.. big ones.

                              . but lots of my gggg... grandma siblings and cousins sure may have ended up in England.. because Oconostota and his cousins and mom's cousins family went there a few times 1730's and 1750's . history records mostly males that I know of. so far no matches in england except those claiming indian blood..
                              but I am not directly connected to ward, but probably his other daughter who married a man named Barker, who married a different Alle /Ollie Nionee's sister .
                              Lucy who married Ward is commonly known as the 1/2 sister...
                              all I know is Oconostota daughter who married Barker is at the top of my line and someone along that line spoke french up there .... and no french matches!
                              we are stuck though with two ladies names during the TOT years and don't know which is the mother and which is a maybe step mom. but the middle names trace us to the surname Barker in the mid/early mid 1700's

                              so maybe maybe metis or maybe some kind of saponi/Iroquois traders spoke french .. I have tons of french speaking indians on my saponi side... as sometimes Oconostota was pro french and may have gotten one of his wives up there someplace....

                              or maybe she was just plain old pureblood Alle paint clan like Alle/Ollie Nionee. but I am sure i can trace Yocum and turner to that family group someplace and they are one match away from us or match us.
                              take your pick but no old world matches is no matches .
                              Every surnames in my group at SMGA has people hunting indians back there on message boards , everyone of them..
                              but you sure can believe you are english but I see no proof of that.
                              so prove it you guys!
                              just because someone says abcd is indian doesn't mean they are the only ones.
                              X2 and u5b and N have been found together in old world mechtoids types, that is who we were . and we was here.
                              Last edited by purple flowers; 9 January 2011, 04:40 PM.

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                              • Purpleflowers

                                I cant seem to find anything on the web where you claim a whole lot of haplogroup C's are showing up in England. Maybe you can post a link to this study?

                                And all these people you claim in England Haplogroup C have done a Full Gnome Sequence on their MTDNA ? Only way to tell the difference between Indian DNA and Asian DNA on MTDNA is with a FGS test.

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