American Indian admixture in White Americans

[Barreldriver]

I will pm you.

Let's hope the FTDNA IT team make and keep a New Year's resolution to fix that cut-off bug that happens in pms and posting in threads.

Happy New Year 2011 To Everyone!!

And the raw data formatting error that's been around since October! lol

[rainbow]

PM sent. Email me.

And the raw data formatting error that's been around since October! lol

pm sent.

FTDNA has a glitch that won't allow copying and pasting if it has a non-standard basic American English character. Maybe it is a character found on a scientific calculator.


p.s. What formatting error? 23andme or FTDNA FF raw data? Am I supposed to have new raw data from 23andme? When I was on the 23andme website last time it said I was eligible for an upgrade, but I decided not to. I can't open and read zip and csv files. All I can do is download it and send it as an attachment in an email (I sent my zip file to Doug McDonald and Eurogenes). I deleted the zip file afterwards but I can still browse thru my raw data when I am logged into 23andme.

[darroll]

Rainbow,


PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFF

[rainbow]

Rainbow,


PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFF

Population Finder? OK, thanks Darroll.

[Yaffa]

Forsyth County was created from Stokes County. Stokes County was created from Surry County. Surry County was created from Rowan County. That part I knew. I didn't know Rowan County was created from Anson County.

Davie County was created from Rowan County. My mtdna line lived in these two counties.

There is a family genealogy that says the father of my GGGG Grandmother moved to Rowan County, North Carolina from Halifax County, Virginia around 1801. But the only man I can find of that name and timeframe moved to Surry County, North Carolina, (with his second wife) supposedly from Orange County or Albemarle County, Virginia. I am gonna accept that that man is my ancestor (and his first wife) and that the family historians were still using the old county names that they were used to instead of the new names.
Even with the internet it is confusing keeping up with the changes.

I have an ancestor that was in Rowan (Today would be Davie County). Its very important to keep up with the county border change because you need to look for records in those counties too when researching.

When Rowan was formed in the 1750's not many people lived there. It was still frontier and Indian lands. The tribes gave up some of their land and this is when parts of Rowan start to become new counties

Happy New Year everyone

[Barreldriver]

pm sent.

FTDNA has a glitch that won't allow copying and pasting if it has a non-standard basic American English character. Maybe it is a character found on a scientific calculator.


p.s. What formatting error? 23andme or FTDNA FF raw data? Am I supposed to have new raw data from 23andme? When I was on the 23andme website last time it said I was eligible for an upgrade, but I decided not to. I can't open and read zip and csv files. All I can do is download it and send it as an attachment in an email (I sent my zip file to Doug McDonald and Eurogenes). I deleted the zip file afterwards but I can still browse thru my raw data when I am logged into 23andme.

FTDNA has a similar file for Population Finder, but when it's opened in something like excel it's all jumbled and can't be run through many of the online utilities for raw data (though even if it weren't jumbled much of the data covered by FTDNA couldn't be run anyway as it only shares a few thousand SNP's with the leaders in BGA testing field[23andMe and Decodeme]).

[Barreldriver]

I have an ancestor that was in Rowan (Today would be Davie County). Its very important to keep up with the county border change because you need to look for records in those counties too when researching.

When Rowan was formed in the 1750's not many people lived there. It was still frontier and Indian lands. The tribes gave up some of their land and this is when parts of Rowan start to become new counties

Happy New Year everyone

Sounds like a lot of other Appalachians are having more North Carolinian ancestry than I. Reckon if my folks didn't move around so much our story would be different. I'm curious if all ya'll with the Amerindian ancestry descend from families that stayed put for generations as opposed to my own which moved around a bit more. Because of all our migrating we just happened to find others with similar European backgrounds as opposed to someone who stayed put would have a longer time to "sample the region".

Note, this is regarding my paternal ancestry as my paw is the Cohee, my maw is a Midwesterner. I was raised in Overton County, Tennessee where my family (the Reader's/Reeder's) had been since its founding in 1806 (torn from Jackson County, it lies on the Cumberland Plateau and the Highland Rim)

I've had folks that naturally had to go through North Carolina to get to Tennessee (never stayed more than half a generation or in NC, typically Randolph, Caswell, or Wake Counties) prior to that they were all from Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Maryland before the migrations.

Basically we used North Carolina as a checkpoint/rest area before moving on west into Tennessee (though some went to Kentucky and came down to Tennessee, others went into West Virginia, Monongalia County and stayed until some economic hardships came about then moved to Ohio [the TN and WV lines met because of the Goodyear industry in Akron, Ohio which coincidentally lies on the Allegheny/Cumberland Plateau of the Appalachians, this is also how I've got an English-Canadian great grandmother whose grandparents were all immigrants from England].

Basically those from Piedmont Virignia went into what is now Kentucky or through North Carolina and intersected in North Eastern Middle Tennessee where the Cumberland Plateau goes through).

I know we're Appalachians because the counties in Virginia we were from were Piedmont counties, and in Tennessee we were among the first European settlers in Overton County, Tennessee on the Cumberland/Allegheny Plateau, and Wayne County Kentucky is on the Pennyrile and borders the Eastern Mountain Coal Fields.

Our time line was basically like this:

pre-1770's - Old World (mostly England, some Northern Ireland, Wales, Germany and France)

post 1770's pre 1790's - Resided in Piedmont Virginia, Pennsylvania and Maryland.

post 1790 pre 1800 - Migration, some went temporarily into North Carolina, others went into Kentucky or into what is now West Virginia.

post 1800 pre 1806 - Settlement into what was then part of Jackson County. Others were getting acquainted in Wayne County, Kentucky and Monongalia, WV (then still a part of Virginia proper).

1806 - Overton County, Tennessee is formed from Jackson County.

post 1806 - Folks from Wayne County, Kentucky were migrating down into Overton County, Tennessee, met and got hitched.

Civil War - Families split, some fighting for CSA (25th Tennessee, Company H) others fled into Kentucky and fought for the Yanks. Folks in Monongalia were formerly CSA but when WV split they became Yank. My folks from Monongalia fought for the Yanks as medics.

Post Civil War - Folks sittin' tight in Overton County, Tennessee and Monongalia, WV until 1930's.

1930's - Some economic hardships called for my folks to leave Overton County and Monongalia County and go into Akron, Ohio for Goodyear, paternal gramps was born, maternal grandma was born after her father met my great grandmother who was an immigrant from Ontario (all 4 of her grandparents were Southern English immigrants).

post 1930's - my grandparents met, had kids, some migrations in between Akron, Ohio and Overton County Tennessee happened because the money from Goodyear was going to fund the 100 acre cattle farm in Tennessee, farm fire happens in 1980's, folks stay in Ohio for a while, my parents go back down to Tennessee and I am conceived, cut out in Akron, Ohio, moved back down to Overton County, TN moved back up to Akron, Ohio. lol

[smallaxe]

While I don't know that I consider myself "Appalachian", I have a lot of genealogical connections with those folks. My grandfather is from Georgia, and his people are a fairly typical southern, early settlers family. Most moved to Georgia either from Virginia or the Carolinas in the late 1700's and early 1800's. In most cases where one of my ancestors moved to Georgia, some of their siblings moved to Kentucky or Tennessee. My southern ancestors were very mobile. Almost never did any particular ancestor stay in the county where they were born. I have some likely black admixture and possible Amerindian (it's a lot harder to identify that) as described here: http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top..._1#entry226390
Our family doesn't have an oral story of either black or native American ancestry. The likely source is a branch of the family that came to Georgia from Robeson County NC in 1801, but I so far have not been able to find paper evidence of either black or amerindian ancestors. I have found a number of cases where an ancestor's brother married a native American. Based on my 30 years doing traditional genealogy on my southern ancestry, I'd say that native American and black admixture is probably common in southerners that go back to colonial times, but the amount of admixture percentage-wise is likely to be pretty tiny.

Something that pertains a little to this discussion is this interesting simulation someone did that shows how likely or unlikely it is for you to have detectable DNA from any particular ancestor past 5 generations: http://www.genetic-inference.co.uk/b...share-our-dna/
Since colonial sources of admixture are typically greater than 5 generations back, it's quite possible for a person to have a genealogical ancestor from colonial USA that is non-white, but have no discernable genetic material from that ancestor.

[kawashkar]

.. I'm not denying that mixing took place, but the social setting did not allow for it readily, the whole claiming an Indian ancestor down there seems to be a fad, I've met very few who actually had a real Amerindian ancestor and belonged to the White population, there's plenty of folks like myself who are 100% European ...

You are denying it, in fact, no matter you said the opposite.

Some basic facts to reasonning about admixture.

(1) If the river sounds, stones carry (Spanish saying). In other words, if there are "legends" about admixture, it is because they really happened.

(2) Define a 100% European, if there is anything as such. A continent with so much admixture of Asians, Africans, Jews, Arabs, Gypsies and Neanderthals is not precisely a model of "purity".

(3) What is a "real" American Indian? The idea that every Native American was an Cherokee, Apache or a Sioux is really ridiculous. It is very well known the earliest European colonies in North America lived side by side with the Amerindians, and also it is well known interrmariage was common and widespread.

(4) It is well know that the massive floods of German immigrants that arrived for the late 19th century to the earliest 20th century rewrote U.S. history, and forgot the way of living and reality of the earliest colones, many of whom weren't "pure" European peoples.

[kawashkar]

... I said he's no 100% correct because I'm Appalachian and I'm not admixed (and I share with others from nearby regions with results like my own), (...)Also the thread is not about just Admixture of Indian's, the title actually has to do with Amerindian admixture in Whites. So you in fact seem to be the misguided one here not I. Good day.

So, your case is irrelevant for the thread.

This thread is about the actual admixtures, not about the exceptions or other cases. Even in Mexico you can find people who is genetically 100% European, but who cares?

Not in this thread.

[kawashkar]

@rainbow Also with Eurogenes, if the 1% Amerindian/Siberian was with some of the pre-RHH counter results that's more than likely due to the 2% margin of error,

Indeed, but not likely.

You keep forgetting a basic fact. People could have 0% of American Indian markers and still be descendent of American Indians.

[Barreldriver]

Indeed, but not likely.

You keep forgetting a basic fact. People could have 0% of American Indian markers and still be descendent of American Indians.

Do you even know the extant of the RHHcounter analysis? It can detect admixtures going back to the bloody middle ages, was used in a recent study reporting previously unfound African admixture in White Utahns, I cleared the bill with the RHH counter so your claim is rather dubious. The only segment I had wasn't even found by the admin of the project but by myself when I took a closer look, and it was a 333 generation old segment. When I say an unadmixed European, I mean a European who descends in full from those who were among the various waves of prehistoric settling of the region, and you're foolish if you believe they do not exist, various analysis show that there are people of such a background in existence.

And my point with the admixture rates was, I have never met someone who claimed Amerindian ancestry that actually had it (i.e. they were not able to provide a specific tribe, or ancestor, or region, just the general tale over a cup of tea that they descend from some lone Amerindian back in the day), I'm not denying that admixture occurred ever, but to say that it was universal among all folks of Appalachia at all times is a fallacy given that there are Appalachians who are not admixed with Amerindians, also the discussion is not out of topic because the topic of "Amerindian Admixture in American Whites" can go two ways, discussing the existence or non-existence of the admixture. Good day.

[Barreldriver]

^note to my above post, I should point out that I'm answering 3 different posts in one, didn't think to multi-quote so some things said are regarding not just the quoted post but a number of posts directed to myself. I would edit it with the other posts quoted but the time limit expired. blah

[Barreldriver]

Something that pertains a little to this discussion is this interesting simulation someone did that shows how likely or unlikely it is for you to have detectable DNA from any particular ancestor past 5 generations: http://www.genetic-inference.co.uk/b...share-our-dna/
Since colonial sources of admixture are typically greater than 5 generations back, it's quite possible for a person to have a genealogical ancestor from colonial USA that is non-white, but have no discernable genetic material from that ancestor.

So the RHHcounter thing can't account for segments that could have been lost due to recombination.... I was mistaken on that it seems, I had taken the RHHcounter thing to find previously unfindable segments (hence why it found African in previously reported European White Utahns).

Now that I think about it, it does sound ridiculous that the RHHcounter could find something that's been lost to recombination (if it's gone it's gone how can a tool go perform a Marty Mcfly lol). Makes sense about some of these hits, they could have formed segments in past generations but due to them being cut up down the generations forming visible segments can no longer be done, thus there could be admixture that happened but cannot be found using DNA testing.

That tears apart a big chunk of how I was viewing my DNA results.

[smallaxe]

Not just lost to slicing and dicing down to being too tiny. Also from simply being lost in total. For example suppose your father has a 15 cm segment on Chr 2 and a 7 cm segment on Chr 11 from his 6th great grandfather on his father's side, and that is all he has from that particular ancestor. For those areas of those chromosomes, you just happen to get from your father the genetic material he got from his mom, not his dad. Now you don't have any material from that ancestor. Every generation there are loses like this. In fact, fully 50% of each parent's genetic material is lost in the making of a child's genome each generation. It is recombination that actually increases how long a particular ancestor's genes last downstream. If it wasn't for recombination, for any particular chromosome, all of the material contributed by each parent could only come from one of their parents.