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American Indian admixture in White Americans

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  • I wonder if I am descended from the female pirate known as Anne Bonney. Her birth name was Anne Cormac. She was the daughter of Irish people who moved to the Carolinas. She married a pirate named James Bonney. He sought a pardon and turned in/named names of other pirates, upsetting Anne and she left him. She later took up with Captain Jack Rackham and they had a baby born in Cuba. One legend is that the baby died. The other is that the baby didn't die but was left with friends (adopted) in Cuba. I have a 23andme match with someone in Scotland who descends from a Cormac family from Ireland. And I have a 23andme match with a man who is Cuban-American (all four of his grandparents were Cuban). His known pre-Cuba ancestry is from SW France and Spain. He has some other matches to the USA and British Isles. I wonder if he is descended from the baby adopted in Cuba.
    The only Spanish ancestry I have is from English royal lines (Colonial American lines).
    Pirates lived in the Carolinas and the Caribbean.

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    • getting off topic, but...

      Originally posted by rainbow View Post
      I wonder if I am descended from the female pirate known as Anne Bonney. Her birth name was Anne Cormac. She was the daughter of Irish people who moved to the Carolinas. She married a pirate named James Bonney. He sought a pardon and turned in/named names of other pirates, upsetting Anne and she left him. She later took up with Captain Jack Rackham and they had a baby born in Cuba. One legend is that the baby died. The other is that the baby didn't die but was left with friends (adopted) in Cuba. I have a 23andme match with someone in Scotland who descends from a Cormac family from Ireland. And I have a 23andme match with a man who is Cuban-American (all four of his grandparents were Cuban). His known pre-Cuba ancestry is from SW France and Spain. He has some other matches to the USA and British Isles. I wonder if he is descended from the baby adopted in Cuba.
      The only Spanish ancestry I have is from English royal lines (Colonial American lines).
      Pirates lived in the Carolinas and the Caribbean.
      I looked at a family forum a few hours ago, just typing in surnames from a possible tree I might be connected to. One message from six years ago, I think it was, talked about a link to Charlemaign (spelling?). Then they justified it by pointing to the tree I might be related to! It even seemed to be following the female line, which is what I'm following. Hmm...

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      • @ PDHOTLEN
        ^ You're thinking of Charlemagne.


        DNATribes gives me lots of matches from Latin America. For a while my top diaspora/global match was to Puerto Rico. Cuba is an island near to Puerto Rico.
        23andme says I have no Native American (Asia category). The chromosone I match the Cuban on is shown as solidly European. I sent my 23andme raw data to Dr. Doug McDonald and I had a blip for Amerindian, under 1%. And I sent it to the Eurogenes Project where I had a blip, under 2%. It's the same dna/data, but different interpretations of the data. Similar to art interpretation.

        There were East Coast USA American Indians who were sent to work as slaves in the Caribbean.

        (For anyone else reading this, AncestryByDNA said I have 17% Native American ancestry, according to 176 AIMS/SNPs.)

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        • TV mini-series "We Shall Remain" on PBS. Monday nights @9pm EST

          The American Experience mini-series titled "We Shall Remain" will be on tv tomorrow. 9pm Mondays.

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          • Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
            Pretty famous story.
            I had a radio play on cassette as a child about the mutiny. And also saw one or 2 films. But cannot recall wich was wich. Too long ago.

            The anchestors of the mutineers still live btw. They have a population of 48. A third of that has the mutineers as anchestors, the others migrated there, because they thought its kewl.
            This week I have a new 5th cousin on 23andme with ancestry from 3 places. One is from Norfolk Island. I never heard of it before so I googled it and read one third of the islanders are descendants of Bounty mutineers. What a coincidence!
            The other two places are SW England and NE France and Alsace (in France). We don't match on any surnames, so maybe the connection is thru my South Carolina Great Great Grandfather.


            A new file from Eurogenes Project and my Amerindian percentage dropped to just under half a percent. I also have just over half a percent of Siberian/Central Asian. About 99% European. Zero African.
            Last edited by rainbow; 21 October 2010, 11:39 PM.

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            • I guess the suspicions of American Indian ancestry in myself have been put to rest, on 23andMe and the Population Finder I got 100% European, I then submitted my raw data sets (23andMe and FTDNA) to the Eurogenes project and to Dr. Doug McDonald where I got the same thing with the following responses "Typical native Northwest European score, you'd make a pretty descent Orcadian based on that" and "Typical for the Low Countries, France, or close".

              I'm not real surprised since I was never able to find an actual specific ancestor who was American Indian, just those rumors over a cup of tea saying "yeah we're part Indian way way back". I thought for a while that I had found the line, but it turns out I descend from a brother of the individual who had an Amerindian wife, the one brother that I descend from stayed in the White population while the other married and Amerindian, some further observation of deeds, wills, and census records helped clear that confusion, the other suspected ancestor turned out to just be the son of two German immigrants, some of the descendants mixing some not, I descending from the one's who didn't. So to say the least I have some cousins who are part Amerindian, but I myself ain't based on what's been seen.

              Guess I found out one thing, some Appalachians I guess don't differ much from the Old Worlder's.
              Last edited by Barreldriver; 22 October 2010, 04:30 PM.

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              • RE Appalachians

                For someone from the Appalachian region, I recommend reading the book: "Albion's Seed; Four British Folkways in America" by D. H. Fischer. One of those folkways concerns the Scoth-Irish & Borderers (either side of the Scotch-English border). They were the main settlers in the Appalachian region.

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                • Originally posted by PDHOTLEN View Post
                  For someone from the Appalachian region, I recommend reading the book: "Albion's Seed; Four British Folkways in America" by D. H. Fischer. One of those folkways concerns the Scoth-Irish & Borderers (either side of the Scotch-English border). They were the main settlers in the Appalachian region.
                  Yep, we were called Cohee because of them, it's how our ancestors said "Quoth He" or something, a number of these "Scots-Irish" settlers though were of Northern English extraction who got absorbed into the Scots-Irish community during the migrations from the more Atlantic parts into the mountains, they just assimilated in so there's a lot of unidentified English ancestry in those parts, I would even wager that some of the initial Scots-Irish immigrants from Ulster and such had some sort of English ancestry in some instances since it was not exclusively the Scots who settled during the plantation times in Ulster. In my particular county we have a few Dutch descending folks too, like Lester Flatt. Good ole Overton County wooot!

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                  • That's quite boring. This thread is about American Indian admixture in White Americans. Not about Irish, Scotish or Sweedish, I guess. If Appalachians aren't mixed, I will erase them from my list of interesting people

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                    • Originally posted by kawashkar View Post
                      That's quite boring. This thread is about American Indian admixture in White Americans. Not about Irish, Scotish or Sweedish, I guess. If Appalachians aren't mixed, I will erase them from my list of interesting people


                      The Appalachians (English, Irish, and Scots) were heavily intermixed, especially with the Cherokee. And as boring as it may be to you, it is true.

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                      • Originally posted by ragincajun View Post
                        The Appalachians (English, Irish, and Scots) were heavily intermixed, especially with the Cherokee. And as boring as it may be to you, it is true.
                        There were many Indian tribes in the Appalachia not just the Cherokee just unfortunate that those Indian tribes do not have many records or have no records. People just assume if they have an Indian ancestor in the Appalachia that they had to be Cherokee but this is far from the truth. The Cherokee being Iroquois but there were also Sioux tribes in the Appalachia.

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                        • Originally posted by ragincajun View Post
                          The Appalachians (English, Irish, and Scots) were heavily intermixed, especially with the Cherokee. And as boring as it may be to you, it is true.
                          Where are the evidences for this? I'm not denying that mixing took place, but the social setting did not allow for it readily, the whole claiming an Indian ancestor down there seems to be a fad, I've met very few who actually had a real Amerindian ancestor and belonged to the White population, there's plenty of folks like myself who are 100% European derived from Appalachia (plus a little thing called RHH counter has been able to go beyond the normal extant of detecting admix, allowing for many to prove non-admixture as far back as 100 generations or more, funny that I as an Appalachian have one of the cleanest Chromosome mosaics Eurogenes and McDonald had produced yet, that seems to speak in contrary to claims of Appalachians being heavily mixed).
                          Last edited by Barreldriver; 31 December 2010, 11:50 AM.

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                          • Originally posted by Barreldriver View Post
                            Where are the evidences for this? I'm not denying that mixing took place, but the social setting did not allow for it readily, the whole claiming an Indian ancestor down there seems to be a fad, I've met very few who actually had a real Amerindian ancestor and belonged to the White population, there's plenty of folks like myself who are 100% European derived from Appalachia (plus a little thing called RHH counter has been able to go beyond the normal extant of detecting admix, allowing for many to prove non-admixture as far back as 100 generations or more, funny that I as an Appalachian have one of the cleanest Chromosome mosaics Eurogenes and McDonald had produced yet, that seems to speak in contrary to claims of Appalachians being heavily mixed).

                            There is proof of admixture but not all were Cherokee. There were other tribes in our area. You can also look at the early History in Granville NC where there were many Free People of Color both African and Indian. Many people in our area came through VA. VA had laws that if you were a free person of color to had to get permission to stay in VA to live as a free person of color. People were running from these laws and also the laws of tithable tax. tithable tax was before property tax. You were taxed as a person. Free people of color were charged extra tax for not being born white. This is the simple explanation. For detailed info on Tithable tax see this link http://www.genfiles.com/legal/Tithables.htm . My family was signing petitions against these laws. My family is mixed and from the Appalachia.

                            With proof you need to look at Y and MT DNA results in our area. There are plenty out there. For a few results check the Melungeon DNA project here at FTDNA. Cumberland Gap DNA project. Im not a big fan of autosomal testing when it comes to admixture tests. I find Y and MT DNA results to be more useful

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                            • Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                              There is proof of admixture but not all were Cherokee. There were other tribes in our area. You can also look at the early History in Granville NC where there were many Free People of Color both African and Indian. Many people in our area came through VA. VA had laws that if you were a free person of color to had to get permission to stay in VA to live as a free person of color. People were running from these laws and also the laws of tithable tax. tithable tax was before property tax. You were taxed as a person. Free people of color were charged extra tax for not being born white. This is the simple explanation. For detailed info on Tithable tax see this link http://www.genfiles.com/legal/Tithables.htm . My family was signing petitions against these laws. My family is mixed and from the Appalachia.
                              I will ask are these people the majority in their region? Doubtful, if they're such a "heavy" demographic they'd be close to the majority.

                              With proof you need to look at Y and MT DNA results in our area. There are plenty out there. For a few results check the Melungeon DNA project here at FTDNA. Cumberland Gap DNA project. Im not a big fan of autosomal testing when it comes to admixture tests. I find Y and MT DNA results to be more useful
                              Are these mixed people the majority though? No, I've looked at the Cumberland Gap project and related, and the dominance is in European clades (heavily R1b clades that are downstream of M269), the autosomal testing gives a more in depth picture of the overall ancestral background instead of just one lineage out of thousands, especially with things utilizing RHH counter (used in a recent study involving admixture in White Utahns), and from those analysis (provided by Eurogenes and Dr. McDonald) one can get a very accurate ancestral picture, and despite all this stuff said about Appalachians being heavily mixed, I being an Appalachian, came out more European than some Europeans, also being able to confirm this for over 100 generations, see the following formula regarding segment sizes and age in generations (posted by smallax on DNA forums):

                              Based on those papers, the take-away is that
                              the rule of thumb is simply 100/gens = cM size, or conversly, 100/cM = generations, assuming your talking 4 or more generations, where the variability settles down.
                              example:

                              100/1 cM = 100 generations, or 2,500 to 3,000 years.
                              100/2.5cM = 40 generations, or 1,000 to 1,200 years.
                              100/5 cM = 20 generations, or 500 to 600 years.
                              100/10 cM = 10 generations, or 250 to 300 years.
                              100/15 cM = 7 generations, or 175 to 210 years.

                              If Appalachians are all so heavily mixed, the RHH counter would have been able to pick it up in myself, and there's nothing there, no segments at all, so less than 1cM for the cM score, thus beyond 100 generations in proof.

                              Genes don't lie.

                              I'm not denying that mixing took place, but I read here that some say it was "heavy" and prevalent, if that was so then people like me should be "heavily" admixed, and we're not, folks like myself are not admixed in the slightest.
                              Last edited by Barreldriver; 31 December 2010, 12:30 PM.

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                              • I know plenty of people that come up mixed on autosomal tests in the Appalachia although their autosomal results are not posted and I cant post them. Some are people I just know and some are even my FF matches. However I will say again that I am not a big fan of autosomal race/admixture testing. So we can agree to disagree on autosomal admixture testing. I use Y and MT in direct lines to get the full picture. When your looking at results on Y and MT your only looking at one line not all the lines. So you see R1b come up on a male line in the Cumberland Gap. Are you also looking at his mother's MTDNA? His wife's MT DNA- His wife's Father's Y DNA? When I talk to people who research in the Appalachia they are telling me Y- and MT DNA results in several of their direct lines trying to get the full picture. Those fuller pictures of ones ancestors are not going to be told by you looking and DNA Groups on here. I have Y and MT DNA results from several of my direct line ancestors and I add them to my tree as more people in my family DNA test. I know others who do this too. Many of these people may not post this info on line. My Tree is not public. Our DNA results are public but the full story of how all the Y and MT DNA results connect on my tree is not public.

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