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    Originally posted by kawashkar
    Yeap, I agree that is not easy to tell with hybrid people. However, I was just telling you that Latinos don't confuse pure Amerindians with mulattoes, because the usual phenotypes are completely different.
    Also when I state there is a lot more Indian DNA south of the US border. My ancestor born in the Rio Grande TX this side of the border ( cutting it very close to Mexico ). My MT-DNA is Hg B2 ( FGS ). I have 83 Matches on HVR1. Most are in the west coast region, Rio Grande this side of the US border and south of the US border. I have been contacted by a few and all claim their ancestors were Spanish. Some do not understand that their DNA is NA not Spanish. With that said, how many of these people were listed white in Spanish records and assimilated into thinking they are Spanish from Spain?? I can tell you my ancestor was listed White the whole way through the census but she is not. My ancestor had a story that she was shunned from her family. Her family were very weathy Spanish and she was shunned for marrying a poor " White Man". We had no land and were very poor. At this point I knew she was shunned for a White Man issue and knew she was Indian.This was before I even DNA tested.
    Last edited by Yaffa; 13 August 2008, 07:51 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Yaffa
      ... Some do not understand that their DNA is NA not Spanish. With that said, how many of these people were listed white in Spanish records and assimilated into thinking they are Spanish from Spain?? I can tell you my ancestor was listed White the whole way through the census but she is not. My ancestor had a story that she was shunned from her family. Her family were very weathy Spanish and she was shunned for marrying a poor " White Man". We had no land and were very poor. At this point I knew she was shunned for a White Man issue and knew she was Indian.This was before I even DNA tested.
      In Latin America, at least in the non-tropical lands, the mixture between Spaniards and Natives is what predominates. So, if some person say it descend of Spaniards that doesn't exclude it also could descend of natives at the same time. In Mexico, the average mixing is 50% European and 50% Amerindian. In other places like Argentina is 85% European and 15% Amerindian. There is not a single country in Latin America where Amerindian blood is absent, not even in those where native tribes went extinct (like Cuba, PR or DR).

      More strange is that Amerindian DNA is not absent in the Spanish genetic pool either, because a large group of Amerindian went there as slaves or migrants in the last five centuries.

      Now, it is false the rich people in Latin America were Europeans and the poors the mixed and Amerindians. Many times there were poor European immigrants who married into rich local families of mestizo ancestry. So, things are more complicated in Latin America that appears at first.

      Finally, White Americans also have some degree of Amerindian admixture on them. It is so obvious by seing the pictures of crowds. The theoretical 6% of Amerindian admixture in White Americans shows. (No matter didn't left a trace in history records, though)
      Last edited by kawashkar; 13 August 2008, 05:20 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Yaffa
        Pure Indian and Pure African descent is something else.Yes they look different..
        Of course. It is well known that some mestizos can pass as Europeans, and that certain groups of Natives can even pass as Japaneses. In the case of first generation Mulattos, they are clearly distinguishable from any other group. In the case of Quadroons the case is different and some indeed look Arab or European.

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        • Originally posted by kawashkar
          In Latin America, at least in the non-tropical lands, the mixture between Spaniards and Natives is what predominates. So, if some person say it descend of Spaniards that doesn't exclude it also could descend of natives at the same time. In Mexico, the average mixing is 50% European and 50% Amerindian. In other places like Argentina is 85% European and 15% Amerindian. There is not a single country in Latin America where Amerindian blood is absent, not even in those where native tribes went extinct (like Cuba, PR or DR).

          More strange is that Amerindian DNA is not absent in the Spanish genetic pool either, because a large group of Amerindian went there as slaves or migrants in the last five centuries.

          Now, it is false the rich people in Latin America were Europeans and the poors the mixed and Amerindians. Many times there were poor European immigrants who married into rich local families of mestizo ancestry. So, things are more complicated in Latin America that appears at first.

          Finally, White Americans also have some degree of Amerindian admixture on them. It is so obvious by seing the pictures of crowds. The theoretical 6% of Amerindian admixture in White Americans shows. (No matter didn't left a trace in history records, though)
          Thay have actually proven the Native tribes in Cuba,Puerto Rico, ect are not extinct. I also happen to have a close friend who is Cuban with Indian ancestry. I believe they have a Tiano DNA group here. There were also many Indians taken from here for slavery to the Islands in colonial times.

          Not all Americans may have an Indian ancestor back there. The only way anyone ( as of right now with DNA testing ) is for everyone existing in America to take both Y and MT-DNA test. Then you may know the answer.

          As far as Spain turning up with NA DNA I have not seen proof. The people that contacted me claiming their ancestor came from Spain, did not. 2 were from the Rio Grande ( US side of border ) and one Mexico. They were just told by the family that they were from Spain. It was a cover up to hide being Indian or they were around the Spanish for so long that they just believed that is what they are.

          Many in my family believe my ancestor was full blooded. Why shun for a white man issue if you are already mixed with white. The true Spanish DNA, they show up with European DNA. As for my ancestor I can trace her on the federal census ( except 1900 ). She entered white society. The rest of her family I can not. Her parents are on one census in 1880. Her brother, after 1880, does not show up on a census again until 1920. I found his WW1 draft and where he was living at the time, the population was 8 people. This included his family. Think he was avoiding white society living in a population of 8 people !!! I know our family did not mingle with the wealthy but worked for them as laborers. Where we lived we should be in Meir records but we are not. No record found to date of my family in Mexico. I'm sure they are in Indian Catholic Parish records somewhere on this side of the border.

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          • Originally posted by Yaffa
            Thay have actually proven the Native tribes in Cuba,Puerto Rico, ect are not extinct. I also happen to have a close friend who is Cuban with Indian ancestry. I believe they have a Tiano DNA group here. There were also many Indians taken from here for slavery to the Islands in colonial times.
            .
            Cuba is a good example that shares many things with the United States. In both places, the denial of Indian ancestry and the belief in extinction is widespread.
            I have talked with Cubans several times. Once I asked a Cuban doctor about theirs natives and he said they didn't have them. In other ocassion I asked a Cuban, of evident Native ancestry, saling music CDs on an exhibition, about theirs native music and traditions, and he looked me as if I were crazy

            Originally posted by Yaffa
            Not all Americans may have an Indian ancestor back there. The only way anyone ( as of right now with DNA testing ) is for everyone existing in America to take both Y and MT-DNA test. Then you may know the answer.
            .
            I wonder why Americans have expended so much money in genetical tests in Latin America and haven't done the same in theirs own people.

            Originally posted by Yaffa
            As far as Spain turning up with NA DNA I have not seen proof.
            .
            I have seen historical records. I don't mean the percentage of Native DNA in there is high. I just meant that back migration existed, even before the last decades when Latin Americans have flood Spain.

            Originally posted by Yaffa
            The people that contacted me claiming their ancestor came from Spain, did not. 2 were from the Rio Grande ( US side of border ) and one Mexico. They were just told by the family that they were from Spain. It was a cover up to hide being Indian or they were around the Spanish for so long that they just believed that is what they are.
            .
            I believe you confuse things. Those families very well may have an European ancestor (the great granfather, for example), which don't mean every branch of the family tree comes from Europe.

            Originally posted by Yaffa
            Many in my family believe my ancestor was full blooded. Why shun for a white man issue if you are already mixed with white. The true Spanish DNA, they show up with European DNA. As for my ancestor I can trace her on the federal census ( except 1900 ). She entered white society. The rest of her family I can not. Her parents are on one census in 1880. Her brother, after 1880, does not show up on a census again until 1920. I found his WW1 draft and where he was living at the time, the population was 8 people. This included his family. Think he was avoiding white society living in a population of 8 people !!! I know our family did not mingle with the wealthy but worked for them as laborers. Where we lived we should be in Meir records but we are not. No record found to date of my family in Mexico. I'm sure they are in Indian Catholic Parish records somewhere on this side of the border.
            You must realize in the Spanish colonial societies the differences between European and Indians were blurred. What you call "Indian Catholic Parishes" can only exist in the American mentality. There weren't segregated churches in the Spanish Empire. To those parishes assited Europeans, mixed and Indian peoples.
            Last edited by kawashkar; 13 August 2008, 10:44 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kawashkar
              Cuba is a good example that shares many things with the United States. In both places, the denial of Indian ancestry and the belief in extinction is widespread.
              I have talked with Cubans several times. Once I asked a Cuban doctor about theirs natives and he said they didn't have them. In other ocassion I asked a Cuban, of evident Native ancestry, saling music CDs on an exhibition, about theirs native music and traditions, and he looked me as if I were crazy
              Yes many do but my friend said he would rather be in denial of his Spanish heritage. I can post exactly what he said but he does admit how much damage Spain did.


              Originally posted by kawashkar
              I wonder why Americans have expended so much money in genetical tests in Latin America and haven't done the same in theirs own people.
              Maybe the are doing Indian study there???? See how many truly did not die of small pox. More like either pencil genocide or assimilation ??



              Originally posted by kawashkar
              I have seen historical records. I don't mean the percentage of Native DNA in there is high. I just meant that back migration existed, even before the last decades when Latin Americans have flood Spain. I believe you confuse things. Those families very well may have an European ancestor (the great granfather, for example), which don't mean every branch of the family tree comes from Europe.
              The may have Spanish in the mix but they were telling me their female lines were Spanish. I advised it may have been the males being that their females were born here and come up Native.



              Originally posted by kawashkar
              You must realize in the Spanish colonial societies the differences between European and Indians were blurred. What you call "Indian Catholic Parishes" can only exist in the American mentality. There weren't segregated churches in the Spanish Empire. To those parishes assited Europeans, mixed and Indian peoples.
              They do have specific records just for Indians here and Indian federal census for some of the Parishes

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              • Originally posted by Yaffa
                Yes many do but my friend said he would rather be in denial of his Spanish heritage. I can post exactly what he said but he does admit how much damage Spain did.
                We Latinos know what Spain did. At least in South America we are in peace with Spain because two reasons: First, we defeat that country in the battlefields and gave her a lesson. And second, Spain declined so much after the 19th century in that chaos that ended in a Civil War, that we received many of theirs refugees. Finally, it is not easy to hate relatives.


                Originally posted by Yaffa
                Maybe the are doing Indian study there???? See how many truly did not die of small pox. More like either pencil genocide or assimilation ??
                Pencil genocide is the most common in the Americas. It is amazing how much the ideas has changed since the genetical studies have started to turn down the ancient myths.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by kawashkar
                  We Latinos know what Spain did. At least in South America we are in peace with Spain because two reasons: First, we defeat that country in the battlefields and gave her a lesson. And second, Spain declined so much after the 19th century in that chaos that ended in a Civil War, that we received many of theirs refugees. Finally, it is not easy to hate relatives.

                  I know some will admit what happened and some wont. Like the Cuban's you mentioned that don't acknowledge Indian cuture in Cuba

                  Originally posted by kawashkar
                  Pencil genocide is the most common in the Americas. It is amazing how much the ideas has changed since the genetical studies have started to turn down the ancient myths.
                  I think the more people DNA test the more we may find out how much pencil genocide happened. I think more cuture died with the pencil than the small pox issue.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Yaffa
                    ...I think the more people DNA test the more we may find out how much pencil genocide happened. I think more cuture died with the pencil than the small pox issue.
                    Absolutely. Change has already happened in some places. For instance, in Brazil people got shocked when they realize a third of theirs genetic pool was indigenous. In Argentina nobody could believe half theirs mtDNA was indigenous as well. And the happiest has been Puerto Ricans and Dominicans who verified they still have Taino ancestry. In Chile, we pride of our Indigenous part, and we identify with heroes like Lautaro, Colo-Colo and others, so genetic tests has only confirm what we knew all along.

                    With respect to cultures things are different. Genes don't carry culture, and the natives of the americans has been lossing theirs culture by the process of assimilation an intermarriage in an frightenning rate. The amerindian languages are in dangerous, and many traditions, customs and techniques has already dissapeared. Most of what survives today is in an hybrid, syncretic form. However, even in that form, I expect the ancients ways will survive.
                    Last edited by kawashkar; 15 August 2008, 09:50 AM.

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                    • agree

                      Originally posted by kawashkar
                      Absolutely. Change has already happened in some places. For instance, in Brazil people got shocked when they realize a third of theirs genetic pool was indigenous. In Argentina nobody could believe half theirs mtDNA was indigenous as well. And the happiest has been Puerto Ricans and Dominicans who verified they still have Taino ancestry. In Chile, we pride of our Indigenous part, and we identify with heroes like Lautaro, Colo-Colo and others, so genetic tests has only confirm what we knew all along.

                      With respect to cultures things are different. Genes don't carry culture, and the natives of the americans has been lossing theirs culture by the process of assimilation an intermarriage in an frightenning rate. The amerindian languages are in dangerous, and many traditions, customs and techniques has already dissapeared. Most of what survives today is in an hybrid, syncretic form. However, even in that form, I expect the ancients ways will survive.
                      I totaly agree. With all these people comming up as Native it is proving history books wrong about the extinction of these people as human beings and that the extinction of the Natives was through destroying their culture.

                      They say Voodoo practice is a cross between African and Native American culture. Also Cuban Santa Ria (don't know if I spelt this correctly)
                      practice. These are some that would be the Hybird proving these cultures mixed.
                      Last edited by Yaffa; 15 August 2008, 10:15 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Yaffa
                        ...
                        They say Voodoo practice is a cross between African and Native American culture. Also Cuban Santa Ria (don't know if I spelt this correctly)
                        practice. These are some that would be the Hybird proving these cultures mixed.
                        Yes, that's Santeria of Cuba, Voodoo of Haiti and Candomble of Brazil are syncretic forms of the Catholic "cult of Saints (therefore santeria)" and the African cults to the Orishas. They have some remanents of the indigenous cults, as the ritual of smoking tobacco, for example, but the Indigenous part in them is minoritary. An analogy is in the music of the Hispanic Caribbean, which is syncretic in European and African music, but that also has native instruments on them, like the maracas and the guiro. Syncretism exist in many forms, an perhaps the more strange is the Chifa kitchen of Peru, where Chinese food was turned into a Peruvian variety of foods.

                        In other parts of Latin America the syncretism is directly and mainly between native and european cultures, without third parties. That's obvious in the folk traditions of Mexico, Guatemala, Peru or Bolivia, where music and catholic celebrations are full of indigenous symbology and culture. Even gaucho culture in Argentina carry lots of Indian elements on it. And a country like Paraguay still has Guarani, and indigenous tongue, as the second oficial language.

                        However, there are still long indigenous traditions in theirs pure forms. You can see them in the Amazons, for example. And also in Chile and Argentina where a people like the Mapuches defeated the Europeans and were only recently incorporated to the national states.

                        Today the Mapuches dress like europeans, drive cars and study at the universities, but still at some time of the year they return to the ancestral lands for theirs religious ceremonies that are milenia old.

                        Our state, at least, has impulsed the preservation of native culture by teaching it not only to natives but all the people in the country. That way mentalities have been changing, slowly but certainly to the acknowledge and preservation of ancient native culture and language.

                        Finally, syncretism is also observed in North America. When the metis of Canada practise theirs canoes competions, they are following syncretic traditions. The same can be observed in the rituals of eating turkey in Canada and the U.S., which is native in origin. There are many elements of native culture in the Americas culture as well, from syrup and root beer to pioneer jackets and lacroise. Perhaps some day Americans will realize it at last.
                        Last edited by kawashkar; 15 August 2008, 11:24 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kawashkar
                          However, there are still long indigenous traditions in theirs pure forms. You can see them in the Amazons, for example. And also in Chile and Argentina where a people like the Mapuches defeated the Europeans and were only recently incorporated to the national states.Today the Mapuches dress like europeans, drive cars and study at the universities, but still at some time of the year they return to the ancestral lands for theirs religious ceremonies that are milenia old.
                          We also have this here and it is a good thing that the tribes are keeping their culture alive and practicing.


                          Originally posted by kawashkar
                          Our state, at least, has impulsed the preservation of native culture by teaching it not only to natives but all the people in the country. That way mentalities have been changing, slowly but certainly to the acknowledge and preservation of ancient native culture and language.
                          This is something that needs to happen here. Our public school history books
                          need to be rewritten with updated true facts in history.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Yaffa
                            ...
                            This is something that needs to happen here. Our public school history books
                            need to be rewritten with updated true facts in history.
                            You bet!

                            They should start with a detailed account of pre-Columbian peoples that lived there, and then with the Spanish and French explorations of the land.

                            They should also explain clearly the relation between Indians and Europeans before Independence. They should show the intermarriage openly, and explain why Franklin mentioned natives as a source of inspirations of his ideas. After all, the very idea of federalism was copied from a native organization: the Iroquois.

                            Finally, they should explore that part of American culture that got its roots directly from natives. Traditions that are present in sports, foods and other things that are different from European and that gave the U.S. its special character.

                            And I am thinking in the average American, and not in a special "native" month for minorities.
                            Last edited by kawashkar; 15 August 2008, 09:03 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by kawashkar
                              You bet!They should start with a detailed account of pre-Columbian peoples that lived there, and then with the Spanish and French explorations of the land.
                              Our books state now it was exploration. Needs to be Invasion!!


                              Originally posted by kawashkar
                              They should also explain clearly the relation between Indians and Europeans before Independence. They should show the intermarriage openly, and explain why Franklin mentioned natives as a source of inspirations of his ideas. After all, the very idea of federalism was copied from a native organization: the Iroquois.
                              Yes part of our government was based on the Haudenoshonee/6 Nations

                              Originally posted by kawashkar
                              Finally, they should explore that part of American culture that got its roots directly from natives. Traditions that are present in sports, foods and other things that are different from European and that gave the U.S. its special character.And I am thinking in the average American, and not in a special "native" month for minorities.
                              Yes they should and also when they teach slavery it is only the African. They leave out the Natives were also taken in to slavery.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Yaffa
                                Our books state now it was exploration. Needs to be Invasion!!
                                .
                                Indeed!


                                Originally posted by Yaffa
                                Yes they should and also when they teach slavery it is only the African. They leave out the Natives were also taken in to slavery.
                                Indeed. Besides, in the United States the information just gives some clues about natives and then focus during thousand of pages on africans, making them the center of the discussion.

                                That's lack of respect from the aboriginal people of the americas, who deserve to be studied by separate. Come on, the came here first! 15.000 years earlier than anyone else
                                Last edited by kawashkar; 15 August 2008, 10:33 PM.

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