American Indian admixture in White Americans

[tomcat]

Indian Schools

A list of the off-reservation boarding schools for Indians in 1905. These are the schools that would have drawn students from many different tribes.

Carlisle, PA
Chemawa, OR (Salem)
Chilocco, OK
Genoa, NE
Albuquerque, NM
Lawrence, KS (Haskell)
Grand Junction, CO
Sante Fe, NM
Fort Mojave, Az
Carson, NV (Stewart)
Pierre, SD
Phoenix, AZ
Durnago, CO
Fort Shaw, MT
Flandreau, SD (Riggs)
Pipestone, MN
Mount Pleasant, MI
Tomah, WI
Wittenberg, WI
Greenville, CA
Morris, MN
Chamberlain, SD
Fort Bidwell, CA
Rapid City, SD
Riverside, CA (Sherman)

[decora]

Someone way back said they suspected there was a lot of 'boring assimilation' in Indian / European relations. Well, come to Oklahoma, you will find out you are right. Alot of the white people here are happy to be indian, since the Cherokee nation (and other nations) provides free health clinics to anyone with an Indian card.

As for the history of the frontier days, there are many college courses being taught about this very subject nowdays. One trick I might use is to google around for syllabuses from these courses, then get the books from a library or used off amazon. Here is an example: http://tinyurl.com/5p6wnn

One book that I remember from the course I took was 'Into the American Woods: Negotiators on the Pennsylvania Frontier', by James Merrell. This is an entire book about traders, people who had a foot in both worlds and a unique perspective. Some of the books can get a little academic and hard to read but they will definitely provide insight into the era. The various relationships, removals, wars, alliances, cominglings, and so forth are so complicated, it is almost impossible to summarize what happened.

For example, this thread first post claims that 'whites and native americans' were the primary settlers. But in the Southern states, there were large percentages of the popuation that were African - in South Carolina it was well over 50%. Many slaves escaped, and some joined Indian tribes and intermarried. For example the Seminole tribe is especially intermarried, because a lot of slaves could find refuge in the Florida swamps where the Seminoles lived. Or, some slaves became slaves of Indian tribes that adopted Southern style slavery (esp the 5 civilized tribes). Then the tribes got 'removed' to indian territory in the 1830s... but not all left, some tribes stayed in the deep south. Of course, other tribes were 'removed' in various periods, with various severity. There are counties in Oklahoma named 'delaware' or 'potawotamie' and there is a Seneca-Cayuga nation here, with descendents from the Iroquoius confederacy of New York... and many other northeastern tribes may have ended up somewhere in 'indian territory' along the way.

But when the civil war was over, the slaveholding tribes freed their slaves, and some let them join the tribe, and some didn't, and there is was a lot of confusion of course. Especially if you are half white and half black, but look white, or 1/2 indian, 1/4 white, and 1/4 black, but look indian... you do the math on the possible combinations here. the 1930s 'WPA slave narratives' have some very interesting stories told by former slaves who were also in indian tribes, or in indian territory.

A lot of the people in those tribes had a high percentage of European ancestory, for example John Ross of the Cherokees. Google that guy and try to guess his 'race'. And that was in the 1800s. Then again, some tribes would just adopt whoever they could adopt to try to replenish their diminishing numbers, beause of the decimation of diseases and wars. Sometimes 'being adopted into the tribe' would bring in people with no indian blood at all, but being full and equal members of the tribe... of course they could marry, and have kids... who knows what their kids would look like though.

Then of course, there is the fact that a lot of indians are nowdays not considered officially indian, because they refused to be listed on the government Dawes rolls in the early 1900s. On top of that, a lot of people actually have multiple ancestors from different tribes, but you can only 'officially' belong to one tribe. So, you might have a dark skinned man with a Creek name, who is actually mostly Choctaw, whose grandfather refused the Dawes comission rolls so he is officially not indian, walking by a Cherokee clinic he cannot get into, as he watches a light skinned white man with a foot long beard and orange red hair who is 1/16th Cherokee (but might be 1/8 Seminole possibly with an African great grandmother) who is going in to see the fullblood Cherokee doctor (who actually had a irish great great grandmother that nobody ever told him about).

[rainbow]

A list of the off-reservation boarding schools for Indians in 1905. These are the schools that would have drawn students from many different tribes.

Carlisle, PA
Chemawa, OR (Salem)
Chilocco, OK
Genoa, NE
Albuquerque, NM
Lawrence, KS (Haskell)
Grand Junction, CO
Sante Fe, NM
Fort Mojave, Az
Carson, NV (Stewart)
Pierre, SD
Phoenix, AZ
Durnago, CO
Fort Shaw, MT
Flandreau, SD (Riggs)
Pipestone, MN
Mount Pleasant, MI
Tomah, WI
Wittenberg, WI
Greenville, CA
Morris, MN
Chamberlain, SD
Fort Bidwell, CA
Rapid City, SD
Riverside, CA (Sherman)

Thank you for this list Tomcat.

I see that Carlisle was the only school in the east.
I remember an earlier post you made where you said something about the 40th ward? Training for adults in Philadelphia, I think. What was that? Was that an extension of the Carlisle school?

[purple flowers]

Someone way back said they suspected there was a lot of 'boring assimilation' in Indian / European relations. Well, come to Oklahoma, you will find out you are right. Alot of the white people here are happy to be indian, since the Cherokee nation (and other nations) provides free health clinics to anyone with an Indian card.

As for the history of the frontier days, there are many college courses being taught about this very subject nowdays. One trick I might use is to google around for syllabuses from these courses, then get the books from a library or used off amazon. Here is an example: http://tinyurl.com/5p6wnn

One book that I remember from the course I took was 'Into the American Woods: Negotiators on the Pennsylvania Frontier', by James Merrell. This is an entire book about traders, people who had a foot in both worlds and a unique perspective. Some of the books can get a little academic and hard to read but they will definitely provide insight into the era. The various relationships, removals, wars, alliances, cominglings, and so forth are so complicated, it is almost impossible to summarize what happened.

For example, this thread first post claims that 'whites and native americans' were the primary settlers. But in the Southern states, there were large percentages of the popuation that were African - in South Carolina it was well over 50%. Many slaves escaped, and some joined Indian tribes and intermarried. For example the Seminole tribe is especially intermarried, because a lot of slaves could find refuge in the Florida swamps where the Seminoles lived. Or, some slaves became slaves of Indian tribes that adopted Southern style slavery (esp the 5 civilized tribes). Then the tribes got 'removed' to indian territory in the 1830s... but not all left, some tribes stayed in the deep south. Of course, other tribes were 'removed' in various periods, with various severity. There are counties in Oklahoma named 'delaware' or 'potawotamie' and there is a Seneca-Cayuga nation here, with descendents from the Iroquoius confederacy of New York... and many other northeastern tribes may have ended up somewhere in 'indian territory' along the way.

But when the civil war was over, the slaveholding tribes freed their slaves, and some let them join the tribe, and some didn't, and there is was a lot of confusion of course. Especially if you are half white and half black, but look white, or 1/2 indian, 1/4 white, and 1/4 black, but look indian... you do the math on the possible combinations here. the 1930s 'WPA slave narratives' have some very interesting stories told by former slaves who were also in indian tribes, or in indian territory.

A lot of the people in those tribes had a high percentage of European ancestory, for example John Ross of the Cherokees. Google that guy and try to guess his 'race'. And that was in the 1800s. Then again, some tribes would just adopt whoever they could adopt to try to replenish their diminishing numbers, beause of the decimation of diseases and wars. Sometimes 'being adopted into the tribe' would bring in people with no indian blood at all, but being full and equal members of the tribe... of course they could marry, and have kids... who knows what their kids would look like though.

Then of course, there is the fact that a lot of indians are nowdays not considered officially indian, because they refused to be listed on the government Dawes rolls in the early 1900s. On top of that, a lot of people actually have multiple ancestors from different tribes, but you can only 'officially' belong to one tribe. So, you might have a dark skinned man with a Creek name, who is actually mostly Choctaw, whose grandfather refused the Dawes comission rolls so he is officially not indian, walking by a Cherokee clinic he cannot get into, as he watches a light skinned white man with a foot long beard and orange red hair who is 1/16th Cherokee (but might be 1/8 Seminole possibly with an African great grandmother) who is going in to see the fullblood Cherokee doctor (who actually had a irish great great grandmother that nobody ever told him about).

yes it is complicated and one of my grandma also burned their papers because a peice of land wasn't worth the fighting it would have caused in the family. another grandma parents died just before the dawes and the orphans sent to MO. another refused ot sign for unknown reasons.. 3 of my 4 greats were 1/2 bloods or better.. 3 of my four grandpa's were from (part unknown % ) to 1/2 .
and yes that was a way more " traditional" veiw of the dawes commision.
luckily mine were even farther south and the smith family who was also in choctaw territory and they were forced onto the rolls. I still think that was the best choice for our family.

what you say is a true (mostly..) the problem comes in when sceince is so set on proving their points/ and theories about bering straits that they have over looked, discarded lots of native people dna and evidence .. and claimed others who were not truely "native ".. but were asians/chinese / japanese etc who got here about the same time as them only on the other side . or maybe just a few minutes later.. or earlier..
yes it was their land when the whites got there to them years later . and those treaties used to prevent wars need to be upheld. but that does not mean all of them are " native " to the americas.
so that irish grandma may not have been all that irish, but just had an irish surname..,,, and those 50% "blacks " may not have been all african..
we do not know what it is yet !!!!!!!!!!!!! because they been only trying to prove asians were native americans..

[rainbow]

Someone way back said they suspected there was a lot of 'boring assimilation' in Indian / European relations. Well, come to Oklahoma, you will find out you are right. Alot of the white people here are happy to be indian, since the Cherokee nation (and other nations) provides free health clinics to anyone with an Indian card.

As for the history of the frontier days, there are many college courses being taught about this very subject nowdays. One trick I might use is to google around for syllabuses from these courses, then get the books from a library or used off amazon. Here is an example: http://tinyurl.com/5p6wnn

One book that I remember from the course I took was 'Into the American Woods: Negotiators on the Pennsylvania Frontier', by James Merrell. This is an entire book about traders, people who had a foot in both worlds and a unique perspective. Some of the books can get a little academic and hard to read but they will definitely provide insight into the era. The various relationships, removals, wars, alliances, cominglings, and so forth are so complicated, it is almost impossible to summarize what happened.

For example, this thread first post claims that 'whites and native americans' were the primary settlers. But in the Southern states, there were large percentages of the popuation that were African - in South Carolina it was well over 50%. Many slaves escaped, and some joined Indian tribes and intermarried. For example the Seminole tribe is especially intermarried, because a lot of slaves could find refuge in the Florida swamps where the Seminoles lived. Or, some slaves became slaves of Indian tribes that adopted Southern style slavery (esp the 5 civilized tribes). Then the tribes got 'removed' to indian territory in the 1830s... but not all left, some tribes stayed in the deep south. Of course, other tribes were 'removed' in various periods, with various severity. There are counties in Oklahoma named 'delaware' or 'potawotamie' and there is a Seneca-Cayuga nation here, with descendents from the Iroquoius confederacy of New York... and many other northeastern tribes may have ended up somewhere in 'indian territory' along the way.

But when the civil war was over, the slaveholding tribes freed their slaves, and some let them join the tribe, and some didn't, and there is was a lot of confusion of course. Especially if you are half white and half black, but look white, or 1/2 indian, 1/4 white, and 1/4 black, but look indian... you do the math on the possible combinations here. the 1930s 'WPA slave narratives' have some very interesting stories told by former slaves who were also in indian tribes, or in indian territory.

A lot of the people in those tribes had a high percentage of European ancestory, for example John Ross of the Cherokees. Google that guy and try to guess his 'race'. And that was in the 1800s. Then again, some tribes would just adopt whoever they could adopt to try to replenish their diminishing numbers, beause of the decimation of diseases and wars. Sometimes 'being adopted into the tribe' would bring in people with no indian blood at all, but being full and equal members of the tribe... of course they could marry, and have kids... who knows what their kids would look like though.

Then of course, there is the fact that a lot of indians are nowdays not considered officially indian, because they refused to be listed on the government Dawes rolls in the early 1900s. On top of that, a lot of people actually have multiple ancestors from different tribes, but you can only 'officially' belong to one tribe. So, you might have a dark skinned man with a Creek name, who is actually mostly Choctaw, whose grandfather refused the Dawes comission rolls so he is officially not indian, walking by a Cherokee clinic he cannot get into, as he watches a light skinned white man with a foot long beard and orange red hair who is 1/16th Cherokee (but might be 1/8 Seminole possibly with an African great grandmother) who is going in to see the fullblood Cherokee doctor (who actually had a irish great great grandmother that nobody ever told him about).

I wouldn't want to be on any rolls either. If it were me and I could leave and be independant, I would leave.

In the wikipedia link for the Indian Removal Act, there is a link to a New Jersey politician who was opposed to it, he had a German name. I clicked on it and he looks part Indian to me, despite the German names of his parents. I'm thinking it's from Colonial admixture, like I was saying in earlier posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Frelinghuysen

edit: Here is a close-up of Frelinghuysen. He has light eyes, but I still think there is some admixture.

My own father was a blond child and he had light eyes, but my NA is from him. My brunette & brown eyed mom has zero NA.

[rainbow]

I took too long to edit my previous post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Frelinghuysen

edit: Here is a close-up of Frelinghuysen. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rady-Handy.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/TFfVP.jpg

His direct paternal ancestor was actually born in Germany, but joined the Dutch Reformed Church, the same church my paternal grandmothers family was from. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor..._Frelinghuysen

[rainbow]

Now the mystery is if my Native American ancestry, from Flemington, New Jersey, came to me from colonial admixture/intermarriage on a grand scale, almost like in Latin American countries, or if my paternal grandmother was secretly adopted. A full adoption, where neither parent is her parent? Or a non-paternal event? Or maybe my grandmothers mother wasn't her real mother, but her father was her real father and she was adopted from a pregnant mistress/surrogate-mother-the-natural-way? They didn't start having kids until they were in their 30s, after more than a decade of marriage, so maybe they were infertile and adopted? I do have Flemish matches in my DNA Tribes that match the Dutch from her fathers side. If from colonial intermarriage, then it's likely to be Lenape/Delaware, and also means that a lot of people with New Jersey ancestry could be just as admixed or more. If it's from adoption... ...then it's even more of a mystery because there are so many tribes it could be from, because some Carlisle Indian School students, from many different tribes, settled in New Jersey, and then there were also Sioux who worked for the Wild West Show who were living in Mercer County, and that is right next to Hunterdon County, the county my grandmother is from.
And it could be both. If both, then mostly from a mystery tribe, with a little bit of Lenape.

I'm happy that my tests from both companies are in agreement now.

[rainbow]

I had sent another email asking another question:

"I have another question....of my 21 markers...do any of them have Native American alleles at the same marker, indicating that I have some from both parents? Or is it only one Native American allele at a marker? My mom took the AncestryByDna test and she has zero Native American, but she got a low amount of East Asian. If both alleles at my marker(s) are Native American, then my mom would have some. If it's only one allele at each marker, then all my Native American alleles are from my father." - me.

answer:
"Thank you for following up about your testing. To isolate a parent's genetic contribution, it is necessary to test that parent as well. The range of Native American ancestry identified for your own DNA profile reflects your combination of DNA inherited from both parents." - DNA Tribes.

I guess my mom's 5% East Asian is actually Native American.
She had told me that she found distant cousins online who have parts of the family tree and that they & we descend from Pocahontas. There are over 100 familes that descend from Pocahontas, and over 20 are in my mothers family tree. And then there is one great great grandfather (my mother's mother's mother's father) that I don't have a family tree of. The building that had all the birth records burned down during the civil war, so there is no birth certificate for me to get of him, but I found his parents names listed when he married (marriage certificate listed the names of the parents of bride & groom). Beyond that, I know nothing.

[purple flowers]

I had sent another email asking another question:

"I have another question....of my 21 markers...do any of them have Native American alleles at the same marker, indicating that I have some from both parents? Or is it only one Native American allele at a marker? My mom took the AncestryByDna test and she has zero Native American, but she got a low amount of East Asian. If both alleles at my marker(s) are Native American, then my mom would have some. If it's only one allele at each marker, then all my Native American alleles are from my father." - me.

answer:
"Thank you for following up about your testing. To isolate a parent's genetic contribution, it is necessary to test that parent as well. The range of Native American ancestry identified for your own DNA profile reflects your combination of DNA inherited from both parents." - DNA Tribes.

I guess my mom's 5% East Asian is actually Native American.
She had told me that she found distant cousins online who have parts of the family tree and that they & we descend from Pocahontas. There are over 100 familes that descend from Pocahontas, and over 20 are in my mothers family tree. And then there is one great great grandfather (my mother's mother's mother's father) that I don't have a family tree of. The building that had all the birth records burned down during the civil war, so there is no birth certificate for me to get of him, but I found his parents names listed when he married (marriage certificate listed the names of the parents of bride & groom). Beyond that, I know nothing.

well were cousins.. hundreds of times removed.. <LOL>
I am from one of Pocahontas's sisters. and I forgot exactly which relative I have to trace past to find her though , I just know she is back there someplace.. but she is either up my Zerilda Hopkins/french or my infamous line , who married each other , it is up that way somewhere.
how I remember it is just (" favorite" or "Full " ( or both )sister , she even gave me her name and I seem to have forgot it. other ( saponi/siouan Hopkins are trying to trace to or around Pocahontas.. so the tales come down that family line. but no one can find it now days. and I forgot..I have the worst memory. Barely remember my own name...

[rainbow]

well were cousins.. hundreds of times removed.. <LOL>
I am from one of Pocahontas's sisters. and I forgot exactly which relative I have to trace past to find her though , I just know she is back there someplace.. but she is either up my Zerilda Hopkins/french or my infamous line , who married each other , it is up that way somewhere.
how I remember it is just (" favorite" or "Full " ( or both )sister , she even gave me her name and I seem to have forgot it. other ( saponi/siouan Hopkins are trying to trace to or around Pocahontas.. so the tales come down that family line. but no one can find it now days. and I forgot..I have the worst memory. Barely remember my own name...

Hello cousin...many times removed
There is another person of this forum, Maria W, who is our very distant cousin too. She descends from Pocahontas' brother. I think she is the only one of us that has the documents.
My mom didn't give me any papers or links from the cousins she found online. All I remember is that the Pocahontas lines are on my mother's mother's mother's mother's side (wife of the man I can't get a birth certificate of/family tree of because the of a fire during the civil war.). That line is Harris. Goes back to Ledbetter and Clark and something that sounds like Bolling. And lots more. Mom didn't give me it to me in writing. She told me about it, and when she talks she talks like a machine gun, fast and nonstop and it's hard to memorize a lot of what she says.

[purple flowers]

well there is in a picture of Pocohantas baptism is at least one brother who seems to be pouting ,and her father and one sister who has a baby, they are watching the baptism . I have blown up that section of that painting and put it on my wall. I am afraid that is as good as it gets because I can't remember what I was told about her. I was 6 to 8 when most of the stories were told. that was a long time ago...in a land far far away.

[tomcat]

Thank you for this list Tomcat.

I see that Carlisle was the only school in the east.
I remember an earlier post you made where you said something about the 40th ward? Training for adults in Philadelphia, I think. What was that? Was that an extension of the Carlisle school?

No that was something else. Maybe post-secondary education, an early Indian college? Dunno. Just pull-up a census year and search for Indians, they weren't part of the regular census until 1900 (later for some tribes) so any concentration of Indians, in any state, and especially of school age are most likely Indian school kids.

[rainbow]

No that was something else. Maybe post-secondary education, an early Indian college? Dunno. Just pull-up a census year and search for Indians, they weren't part of the regular census until 1900 (later for some tribes) so any concentration of Indians, in any state, and especially of school age are most likely Indian school kids.

OK, thank you.

[rainbow]

well there is in a picture of Pocohantas baptism is at least one brother who seems to be pouting ,and her father and one sister who has a baby, they are watching the baptism . I have blown up that section of that painting and put it on my wall. I am afraid that is as good as it gets because I can't remember what I was told about her. I was 6 to 8 when most of the stories were told. that was a long time ago...in a land far far away.

That sounds nice.
A picture of the baptism painting is on wikipedia. If you click on the picture it gets larger, to full resolution, to see more detail.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Baptism_of_Pocahontas.jpg

The two men who are standing, one in a yellowish robe, and one is a reddish robe, which one is her father? I'm guessing the one with the bird on his head, but wouldn't someone considered a leader be wearing red?
Why are the 3 men from her family barefoot at her baptism? And 2 people sitting on the ground. And a few of the English have their hands on swords/guns during baptism. No one looks happy. They all look tense/sad.


p.s. I asked my mom and there are other lines besides from my mother's mother's mother's mother's side. There are also some lines on my mother's mother's father's side (Howard, Powell, Foster, Branch, Trent, Daniel, etc.). They intermarried (cousins marrying cousins. not first cousins).

My mom did find two first cousins (Dowell) that married, but not from the Pocahontas lines.

[purple flowers]

wow was that something . it blows up so much clearer than the one I have.. I had suspected that the brothers were red heads, they sure are.
and red heads / very very dark auburn red comes down dads mtdna line..
what is even more bizarre is that grandma one time talked about someone on the monsters family ..something about the old grandpa. I don't remember what she said about him.. but Powhatan looks like that old grandpa guy , how weird .. how weird is that?.. I need to figure out that old guys name.... maybe. maybe she thought some old indians looks like that old man or something.. that is weird to see that old " the monsters" mans face.. she may not have been talking about indians when she was talking about he old Munsters guy .. but maybe she was , I don't remember anything except her talking about HIM. DON'T REMEMBER What she said about him though..
it is just weird to see for sure they were red heads and to see the old man from "the monsters" face..I am going to have to try harder to remember what it was she was talking about when she talked about the old grandpa monsters.. guy. his name was Al Lewis, I do not know what nationality Al Lewis was though hum.. I will definitely check into that. because old man Powhatan definitely has Al Lewis's face. do they share mtdna or maybe Y lines.. to weird..
either way they are definitely not chinese.. there is not one hint of chinese there <LOL>
each tribe had different colors or persona's for different chiefs... no set rule really.
also red hair and true black hair . not Asian dark dark brown are connected... you can't get red heads with out a lot of True black color hair genes.