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  • speculation about Moravians

    It would be easier just to GOOGLE up Moravians, but I'll tinker with my own thoughts first. I belonged to a Boy Scout Troop in Madison, Wisconsin that met in the local Moravian Church, so I kind of like them.

    Moravia is now part of the Czech Republic. But back when the persecuted Moravians emigrated to the Colonies, it was part of the Austrian Hapsburg Empire - strictly Roman Catholic. But the Moravian Protestant denomination included prople from other neighboring parts of the Hapsburg Empire, so linguistically the lingua franca would have been Gerrman. And I recall their being referred to as German in the book I mentioned earlier. I wouldn't expect all or even most of those immigrannts to have been missionaries. But it was the Moravian missionaries that intervened on behalf of Native Americans.

    U5b2 & R1a1

    Comment


    • I just do not think it is exact enough science at this stage to say what we are.... we can read anything into anything .. wild clues at best..
      ... when they figure out the slavery issues and put something more than land bridge on the table.. it is not exact enough and it is not telling the whole story.

      Comment


      • Savage and salvage.

        Originally posted by rainbow
        How and when did the people get called "savage" when they were originally called "Salvage". Earlier in this thread I saw that Pocahantas was referred to as a Salvage, not savage.
        These words show how shades of meaning have changed in English word usage, since written in the 16-17th centuries.

        "Salvage" from the Latin "Salve" = Save, means one who has been Saved, that is, converted to Christianity; a major political justification for the funding of the English "Colonial Companies".

        "Savage" from the French "savoir", to know or discover. Indicating "those people, places or things that are newly known".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by purple flowers
          I just do not think it is exact enough science at this stage to say what we are.... we can read anything into anything .. wild clues at best..
          ... when they figure out the slavery issues and put something more than land bridge on the table.. it is not exact enough and it is not telling the whole story.
          Agree!

          Even more. I have the impression that there is a tendency to dismiss the genetic importance of Amerindian ancestry in the U.S. There is a dogma in the U.S. that the Amerindians were totally exterminated and that it was completely repopulated by Europeans.

          They forget that during centuries, trappers and farmers had Indian wives and lived among Indian people in the cities. Indians even published newspapers in the 1840!

          As a Latin American, I see the crowds of "White" Americans and I see the Amerindian faces on them clearly. I wonder why the Americans don't notice something so obvious.

          Come on, Americans. You look quite different from Russians and Germans, indeed.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by kawashkar
            Agree!

            Even more. I have the impression that there is a tendency to dismiss the genetic importance of Amerindian ancestry in the U.S. There is a dogma in the U.S. that the Amerindians were totally exterminated and that it was completely repopulated by Europeans.

            They forget that during centuries, trappers and farmers had Indian wives and lived among Indian people in the cities. Indians even published newspapers in the 1840!

            As a Latin American, I see the crowds of "White" Americans and I see the Amerindian faces on them clearly. I wonder why the Americans don't notice something so obvious.

            Come on, Americans. You look quite different from Russians and Germans, indeed.
            I agree with you kawashkar.
            Most Americans don't see what true Europeans really look like. I've seen European tourists and, to me, there is a huge difference. To me, there clearly is a gentic blend in Americans, in varying degrees.
            For instance, you can't tell me that singer Jessica Simpson is 100% English or European descent. Neither is her ex. And many more American celebrities too.
            Last edited by rainbow; 4 February 2008, 12:42 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kawashkar
              that the Amerindians were totally exterminated and that it was completely repopulated by Europeans.
              well alot of that is all about politics. what you state here is what the indian tribes want everyone to believe....
              you see three of my 4 great grandma's were native American. 1/2 or better. and three of my 4 great grandpa's had some native . the 4ths is my dads british Y haplogroup G. and his fathers mother was 100% italian . I am the only light person in my family.. my hair is light but my skin is kinda medium.
              now the tribes and the government tell us we can not say we are Indian unless we have a card. and prove it only to their rolls..
              now my family is all 'treaty party'.. the other factions created during the trail of tears years ..a once powerful Cherokee family that was driven from the Cherokee nation, killed, murdered and denied citizenship, land etc.. etc etc . but I am told over and over that I can not call myself Cherokee. because they have made laws to protect the REAL" Indians".. in all actuality I probably should not be trying to prove my ancestors stories were true, because it helps out the other party. who has kicked out and rejected thousands over the years who were in the wrong political group.. now they belittle our heritages and call us wannabees ... chimmichangas and they were the ones who did the kicking out.. you know the tribes rights and all.. but they still got our families farms. want a eye opener... check out Indianz.com.... yaw.. it's kinda ugly so be prepared.
              but truth is the most important thing, is it not? I will let God and my ancestors someday deal with the mess . I will keep looking for the truth I was told and I will use what little they remember to prove it . they will not except it if I use my family stories, but family stories was all most of us that got kicked out have . because we are not "real" Indians . so I will use their stories and they will have to except it.
              so no one is allowed to say they are Indian in America( we may offend a real indian) with out huge political BS.. and nasty names and even threats of court cases if you try and sell something. or tell your family stories and in anyway profit from that claim .. or get hired because they think you are native American . you can only be Indian/native American if you are with a tribe. even if your grandparents taught you to make something ... you can not sell it as a native American object. it is the law. and the Cherokee will not allow any other Cherokee people to be recognized outside of themselves.. AND THE guberment DOES NOT WANT THERE TO BE ONE MORE INDIAN IN THE WORLD either . I GUESS NEITHER DOES SCEINCE... IT SEEMS TO ONLY LIKE THE CHINESE/CHINO'S I guess they can recognizes them easier .
              it is a mess really. but nothing can be done at this late date.
              for now I will be happy to get all of the women's lines of native American slaves figured out.. because according to the ancient ways .. those ladies are still native American and have clans long forgotten . they are still my sisters .. just because they were bred in slavery . and slavery brought them confusion and they lost who they were.. did not stop who they were always... even if they may have been forgot/lost . they can remember and be told right..... of course they can not say they are indian and no tribe today will except them .. but at least they will have a better understanding for their health issues and what will be helpful to fix health issues ..... if you do not know who you are how can you know what to do.

              anyway yes there is reasons people have hidden and do not talk about it...... it is and has been a political mess for a very long time.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by purple flowers
                .. AND THE guberment DOES NOT WANT THERE TO BE ONE MORE INDIAN IN THE WORLD either . I GUESS NEITHER DOES SCEINCE... IT SEEMS TO ONLY LIKE THE CHINESE/CHINO'S I guess they can recognizes them easier .
                .
                Well, governments have a reason for that. In the U.S. they preffer Indians are only 2 million people, making them a small minority without real political power. Besides, Indians tribes have treaties with the states that cost them money. So they have a real interest in keeping number small.

                You make me recalled what happened once when the state of Chile asked theirs citizens if they have Indian ancestry..... So much people answered yes (several times the Indian population), that the state never asked that question again.

                In the case of the U.S., tens of millions have Amerindian ancestry, but they just don't know. They are not Indians (don't belong to a tribe or speak an Amerindian language), but the blood is there. And most don't know it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rainbow
                  ...

                  I know that if a family was half Native American and half white they would be considered as white if they were assimilated into white society and living as white. I feel that there were a lot of intermarriages in colonial days producing half white and half native children, then they grew up and married other half/half people. It could just be that there are many generations like that, but living as white. Probably for their own protection. And eventually no one was told their even was American Indian ancestry. So maybe my fathers mother is about half native, but from many generations since 1650 and not from one full parent.
                  It's very likely that the Dutch, English, German, French, & Scottish on my grandmothers side is actually Dutch+unknown Indian tribe, English+another unknown Indian tribe, German+unknown Indian tribe, French+unknown Indian tribe, and Scottish+another unknown Indian tribe.
                  Sort of like the Metis, but without knowing.
                  Exactly! That's exactly what happened in Latin America where most of the so called "White Latinos" have Amerindian ancestry.

                  Comment


                  • Interesting finding
                    http://news.ufl.edu/2008/02/07/mummy-lice/

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tomcat

                      Yes, it is.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tomcat
                        I just saw this map on wikipedia and it shows haplogroup B travelling across the Pacific Ocean. A,C, & D went over the Bering land bridge. I'll guess the Peruvian mummies were B.

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Migration_map4.png

                        Comment


                        • Oceania

                          Sometimes people do not look at a map of Oceania when they think of migrations trends. These people were seafaring. And I remember, it was interesting to examine their emigrational trends. It might even explain the early peaceful tribes of South America.

                          Originally posted by rainbow
                          I just saw this map on wikipedia and it shows haplogroup B travelling across the Pacific Ocean. A,C, & D went over the Bering land bridge. I'll guess the Peruvian mummies were B.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Migration_map4.png

                          Comment


                          • discussion with rainbow .
                            " that is where so many west coast natives went to. "

                            oops that is supposed to say " that is where so many EAST coast native went too"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by purple flowers
                              well alot of that is all about politics. what you state here is what the indian tribes want everyone to believe....
                              you see three of my 4 great grandma's were native American. 1/2 or better. and three of my 4 great grandpa's had some native . the 4ths is my dads british Y haplogroup G. and his fathers mother was 100% italian . I am the only light person in my family.. my hair is light but my skin is kinda medium.
                              now the tribes and the government tell us we can not say we are Indian unless we have a card. and prove it only to their rolls..
                              now my family is all 'treaty party'.. the other factions created during the trail of tears years ..a once powerful Cherokee family that was driven from the Cherokee nation, killed, murdered and denied citizenship, land etc.. etc etc . but I am told over and over that I can not call myself Cherokee. because they have made laws to protect the REAL" Indians".. in all actuality I probably should not be trying to prove my ancestors stories were true, because it helps out the other party. who has kicked out and rejected thousands over the years who were in the wrong political group.. now they belittle our heritages and call us wannabees ... chimmichangas and they were the ones who did the kicking out.. you know the tribes rights and all.. but they still got our families farms. want a eye opener... check out Indianz.com.... yaw.. it's kinda ugly so be prepared.
                              but truth is the most important thing, is it not? I will let God and my ancestors someday deal with the mess . I will keep looking for the truth I was told and I will use what little they remember to prove it . they will not except it if I use my family stories, but family stories was all most of us that got kicked out have . because we are not "real" Indians . so I will use their stories and they will have to except it.
                              so no one is allowed to say they are Indian in America( we may offend a real indian) with out huge political BS.. and nasty names and even threats of court cases if you try and sell something. or tell your family stories and in anyway profit from that claim .. or get hired because they think you are native American . you can only be Indian/native American if you are with a tribe. even if your grandparents taught you to make something ... you can not sell it as a native American object. it is the law. and the Cherokee will not allow any other Cherokee people to be recognized outside of themselves.. AND THE guberment DOES NOT WANT THERE TO BE ONE MORE INDIAN IN THE WORLD either . I GUESS NEITHER DOES SCEINCE... IT SEEMS TO ONLY LIKE THE CHINESE/CHINO'S I guess they can recognizes them easier .
                              it is a mess really. but nothing can be done at this late date.
                              for now I will be happy to get all of the women's lines of native American slaves figured out.. because according to the ancient ways .. those ladies are still native American and have clans long forgotten . they are still my sisters .. just because they were bred in slavery . and slavery brought them confusion and they lost who they were.. did not stop who they were always... even if they may have been forgot/lost . they can remember and be told right..... of course they can not say they are indian and no tribe today will except them .. but at least they will have a better understanding for their health issues and what will be helpful to fix health issues ..... if you do not know who you are how can you know what to do.

                              anyway yes there is reasons people have hidden and do not talk about it...... it is and has been a political mess for a very long time.
                              PF,
                              Calm Down and be happy with your heritage.
                              The Klamath River Indians have been inundated with blue-eyed-blonds claiming to be their relatives.
                              Even some have packed their bags and tried to move on the reservation. One religion thinks being an Indian moves them up in status. See how a few unset the apple cart. d
                              Last edited by darroll; 22 February 2008, 04:11 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Cherokees back east

                                I saw in my book about Daniel Boone that there was a dissenting faction of the Cherokees that the white settlers called "Chickamaugas." They were opposed to selling there hunting grounds to the encroaching Whites. The main leader was Dragging Canoe, and was a very charismatic chief and sided with the British during the Revolution. He was the originator of the term "Dark and Bloody Ground" for Kentucky.

                                U5b2 & R1a1

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