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American Indian admixture in White Americans

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  • a little tale

    I returned to Miami, Florida in 1978 after a divorce with my ex German wife. I had gotten out of the Arrmy in Germany in Jan,1976, and had a couple of German jobs while trying to make a go of things. But I finally gave it up and returned to my Mother's and step-fathers home in Miami. I stayed there a year, before that too fell apart. After that, I bought a one-way ticket to Seattle. So much for background.

    One day, in Miami, I needed an alteration on a pair of slacks. Since my mother wouldn't have anything to do with it, even tho she was handy with the sewing machine, I went to a Cuban tailor to have it done. It was a seamsress at a sewing machine, with a handsome teenage girl hanging around there. The girl did the talking. The middle-aged seamsress aked me, at least a couple of times, whether I was Colombian. I was taken aback, thinking she thought I ws from the infamous, at that time, Medellin Drug Cartell. But thinking about it later, at leisure, it dawned on me that she was paying me a compliment in referring to me as a (Spanish-Colombian) Caballero (=gentleman). ha ha!!
    Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 21 November 2007, 12:22 AM.

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    • I guess it was church leaders who usually complained about marriages. We had tobacco farms in Virginia, and it bothers my father that he remembered his grandfather telling him stories about family members who were not allowed to sit on the same part of the train because of skin color. There must have been people complaining since the 1600s. Not too much information survived from the 1700s. It is just about what type of work you are doing. By the 1900s, laws and social traditions almost wiped out the availability of the Indigenous DNA. My father's phenotype is the only sibling which strongly shows his Indigenous Virginian heritage. I would guess the Y-DNA was lost in the 1850s, and his mtDNA will be lost in 2020 or so. The DNA was lost as we moved out of Virginia. The male DNA was replaced by R1b and the female DNA was replaced by L1c through both slavery and marriages. There are aspects of slavery which are like family. As a matter of fact, it is a source of income and land and traditions.

      Originally posted by kawashkar
      That's a fact that complicate matters. In North America there is confussion between Black and Indigenous people. Many mestizos were called mulattos indeed. So when historians look for records in the U.S. they don't get a clue.

      In Latin America we have the historical advantage we have precise declaration of the original races of marriages, since the 16th century. So we figure it out precisely what was going on since long time ago.

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      • Genetic of population is controlled by the Hardy-Weinberg principle which tells in mixing populations the alleles don't dissapear magically.

        The U.S. "white" population has at least 6% of Amerindian DNA, and the alleles associated to it will never dissapear, at least the White U.S. people do.

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        • It is easy to tell my father is not a full blooded Native American. He has too much facial hair for one thing. The army had a problem classifying him because he called himself American. The people overseas had no problem with the classification. The problem was only in the USA. I said the same when I was interviewed, and they only wanted one of two races. I did not understand the publics' viewpoint until college. We were happy children.

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          • meeting of the minds

            Actually, it seems that I have more of a Native American mentality or world view than my fellow Whites. I mean, I've been a life long bird watcher, even tho not all that impressive a "lister." And I've always been on the side of environmental causes and biodiversity. Unfortunately, I've never gotten the hang of persuing the almighty dollar, leaving me quite uncompetitive, socioeconomically. So I hope Native Americans can preserve their cultures and languages! - what's left of them. Cheers!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kawashkar
              The problem with Amerindian ancestry is that it is hardly visible in the phenotype at all. Mixed people is somehow ambiguos but a 1/4 Amerindian individual looks European. Moreover, there are many native Europeans that could pass for Amerindians. Perhaps 1 in 50! How you could notice? Noses are smaller and faces are a little bit rounder, hair is darker. That's all the clue you get.

              These are mixed individuals 1/2 European and 1/2 Amerindian. Most didn't have problems to addapt to White society.

              Look at the son of Pocahontas:

              I went to the main website. The pic is of Pocahontas and her son. She is so light in this portrait. I wonder if the artist made her lighter than she really was. Who was her mother?
              I've heard there is a lot of variation of skin tones among Native Americans, but she looks entirely European.
              Last edited by rainbow; 26 November 2007, 02:43 AM.

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              • Not really. Natives features overlap with Southern European.
                There are natives that are quite light. Some peoples, like the Mayans and Mexican natives in general and the Quechuas of the Andes are darker. In the Amazon and Patagonia you find people with lighter skins that look more central asians.


                These are typical Mapuche people of my country, for example.




                And these are amazonians:



                They aren't really that dark.

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                • They're nowhere near as fair as the depiction of Pocahantas in that painting. I think she was given an idealistic glow or was made fairer by the artist. And her features are vague.
                  After centuries of Europeans & Africans in the Americas one can never really know what a present-day Amerind individual, or anyone, has in their ancestry without dna testing. But Pocahantas, being so far back, should be fullblooded. We know her father was a cheif, but who was her mother is what I wonder. I haven't seen any reference of her mother anywhere. I'm wondering if she was descended from someone from one of the lost colonies or from an Ancient Planter. A lot can happen in 9 months.
                  Pocahantas is fairer than Da Vinci's Mona Lisa. They look a lot alike. Made me wonder if the real Mona Lisa was from the Americas, not Italy, but I found out that the sitter was Lisa del Giocondo, and was born 1479.
                  That also brings me to what AncestryByDna says about their Native American markers. They are really Central Asian. People in Italy have them too because the Central Asians went both North & East and South & West.
                  Last edited by rainbow; 26 November 2007, 05:02 PM.

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                  • Skin colour is clinal and is likely determined by UV ray exposure. The closer one's ancestors lived to the equator (for at least 1,000 years), the darker their skin colour will likely be. This is the case all over the world with just a few exceptions including the Inuit and Yupik (probably because of their diets, which are particularly rich in vitamin D).

                    John

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Johnserrat
                      Skin colour is clinal and is likely determined by UV ray exposure. The closer one's ancestors lived to the equator (for at least 1,000 years), the darker their skin colour will likely be. This is the case all over the world with just a few exceptions including the Inuit and Yupik (probably because of their diets, which are particularly rich in vitamin D).

                      John

                      Yes, that's true. I forgot about that. When I lived up north I was much fairer than I am now. And the portrait of Pocahantas was done after she had been in England for years. There is hardly any sunshine there and is usually overcast and rainy (so I've heard). And it being cold there she must have spent most of her time indoors too.
                      I still think she may have had a European ancestor.
                      Last edited by rainbow; 26 November 2007, 05:54 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rainbow
                        ...
                        That also brings me to what AncestryByDna says about their Native American markers. They are really Central Asian. People in Italy have them too because the Central Asians went both North & East and South & West.
                        And to the Americas, too. Don't forget that Siberian-Mongolians and Turks tribes of central Asia are closely related. There is the missing link.

                        Now, the fact there were many fair skin natives is something recorded in history. There are chronicles of Mexico reporting that Spaniards preffered the fairer skin Amerindian women, showing that even at contact times, there was quite a lot of variation in skin tone among Amerindians.

                        Look at these natives of the Amazons. Pocahontas perhaps had theirs complexion. A little bit of fantasy on part of the artist would do the rest.



                        And this is another portrait of Pocahontas. Just compare.



                        And yet another versions:

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                        • They looked like American Indians.

                          Table 1. Haplogroup frequencies (%) of A, B, C, D, and X in selected Asian and Native American groups.
                          Population A B C D X Other
                          Malays 0 14 0 0 0 86
                          Vietnamese 0 7 0 0 0 93
                          Taiwanese 10 20 5 0 0 65
                          Koreans 8 8 0 22 0 62
                          Mongolians 5 2 12 19 0 62
                          Bella Coola 65 11 10 14 0 0
                          Nuu-Chah-Nulth 45 7 16 26 7 0
                          TM Chippewa 57 18 18 0 7 0
                          Pai Yuman 7 67 26 0 0 0
                          Northern Paiute 0 41 18 41 0 0
                          Data from Merriwether and Ferrell (1996), Malhi et al. (2001), Malhi et al. (2003), Malhi et al. (in press).
                          # Haplogroup A is highest in frequency in the Arctic/Sub-arctic of North America and nearly absent in non-Athapaskan-speaking folk in the Southwest.
                          # Haplogroup B is in highest frequency in the Southwest of North America.
                          # Haplogroup C is highest in frequency in Eastern North America.
                          # Haplogroup D is highest in frequency in populations from Western North America .
                          # Haplogroup X is highest in Algonquian speaking populations of the Great Lakes Region.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by kawashkar
                            And to the Americas, too. Don't forget that Siberian-Mongolians and Turks tribes of central Asia are closely related. There is the missing link.

                            Now, the fact there were many fair skin natives is something recorded in history. There are chronicles of Mexico reporting that Spaniards preffered the fairer skin Amerindian women, showing that even at contact times, there was quite a lot of variation in skin tone among Amerindians.

                            Look at these natives of the Amazons. Pocahontas perhaps had theirs complexion. A little bit of fantasy on part of the artist would do the rest.



                            And this is another portrait of Pocahontas. Just compare.



                            And yet another versions:
                            Thank you Kawashkar for all the lovely pictures.

                            About the Pocahantas & son portrait...I think it was the fad in those days to make people, especially women, appear lighter, at least in portraits. I think I remember that even Queen Elizabeth I used some sort of alabaster makeup to make herself appear fairer.

                            Best of Luck on your research.
                            Last edited by rainbow; 28 November 2007, 02:45 AM.

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                            • got that book I ordered

                              I finally received that book on the early American frontier I ordered and mentioned in an earlier message. it is very scholarly:

                              "Our Savage Neighbors; How Indian War Transformed Early America."

                              Copyright 2008.

                              It looks like the frontier was one big ungodly mess!

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                              • Haplogroup B

                                Haplogroup B (mtDNA)
                                From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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                                In mitochondrial genetics, Haplogroup B is a human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup.

                                Haplogroup B is believed to have arisen in Asia some 50,000 years before present. Its ancestral haplogroup was Haplogroup R.

                                Haplogroup B is found throughout modern Asia[1]. Its subgroup B2 is one of five haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the others being A, C, D, and X.

                                Since the migration to the Americas by the ancestors of Native Americans is generally believed to have been from Siberia, it is especially surprising that Haplogroup B is the only haplogroup found in Native Americans which is not found in modern North Siberian populations. However, Haplogroup B has been found among Southern Siberians, such as Tuvans, Altays, and Buryats. This haplogroup is also found in Mongolians, Tibetans, Koreans, Japanese, populations of Central China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Polynesia and Micronesia.

                                In his popular book The Seven Daughters of Eve, Bryan Sykes named the originator of this mtDNA haplogroup Ina.
                                __________________________________________________ ____________
                                I have also read that Haplogroup B is found in Samoa, Hawaii, North America and South America all up and down the west coast and in the Rio Grande. Rio Grande is where part of my family is from

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