American Indian admixture in White Americans

[Kelley]

[QUOTE=tomcat]

I know many died of sickness MAYBE some suicide.
...QUOTE]

Outbreaks of infectious disease were a chronic problem at all schools right-up to the day they were closed, although the problem was alleviated by the reforms of the 1920's.

This was the same sort of problem armies faced before the modern era. Most of the casualties of the Civil War succumbed to disease rather than battlefield wounds.

And then there was that flu pandemic around the time of World War I which killed millions worldwide - including an estimated 675,000 Americans. The death rate for people between ages 15-34 was 20% higher than it had been in previous flu epidemics.

[tomcat]

Epidemics, expecially epidemics by unfamiliar pathogens are a special case.

What I was referring to, in regard to Indian Schools or any social setting where, in the past, many people were held in close contact with one another, was the lack of effective control of endemic diseases, familiar diseases. Administrators did not give sufficient regard to sanitation, nutrition, fresh air, clean water, exercise, recreation - in a word, prevention. Nor did they effectively isolate the ill or treat their ailments in a thorough-going manner.

Public health was not very well developed at the time, anywhere.

The reformers of Indian Schools also faulted administrators for acting in ways that increased stresses in an already stressful situation for a highly vulnerable population, Native American children with no familiarity with White civilization or the decidedly miltaristic form of schooling and discipline established by Carlisle (founded by a US Army officer) and widely emulated.

[rainbow]

I got my new updated reports from DNA Tribes today. I still don't match Native Americans.

In the world region I match Finno-Ugric, and many others, but not the Americas or East Asia.

Only AncestryByDna says I have 17% Native American.

[tomcat]

A link copied from another thread bearing on this topic -

http://www.othermetis.net/AboGene/Gene.html#Ancestry

[tomcat]

A link to a list of students at the Choctaw Academy -

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~janelle/choctawacademy.htm

[dnaval]

Still don't match??

I am just wondering if it is because ,you have a mixture of native american.
Choctaw,Chickasaw or Cherokee.
Tribes still has not added these native americans to their database.
I am suspecting we have choctaw also.

I got my new updated reports from DNA Tribes today. I still don't match Native Americans.

In the world region I match Finno-Ugric, and many others, but not the Americas or East Asia.

Only AncestryByDna says I have 17% Native American.

[rainbow]

A link to a list of students at the Choctaw Academy -

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....tawacademy.htm

That's interesting. I can just imagine their descendants, with those English surnames, may or may not know they are Indian. Most people just go by name.
There is even a Harris there. The Harris on the Kentucky list is not my Harris line. No one in my family is from Kentucky. I'm all East Coast. My Harris line is traced generation by generation all the way to Col. West Harris, Jr., from Isle of Wight, Virginia. And I know the pre-Virginia generations also. It is this Harris line that has the Warner & Southern that traces to Stewart in Scotland.

[rainbow]

I am just wondering if it is because ,you have a mixture of native american.
Choctaw,Chickasaw or Cherokee.
Tribes still has not added these native americans to their database.
I am suspecting we have choctaw also.

I think it was in the phenotype thread where you said I look Choctaw.
I have no known American Indian ancestry. Tallulah was a nickname my mom had for me, and it happens to be Choctaw, and means "Leaping Water". But that doesn't mean I'm Choctaw. My Chinese stepfather from Beijing nicknamed me something sounding like Minze, which I was told means "Pearl" in Chinese. And, no, I'm not Chinese.

I'm thinking that AncestryByDna is wrong, in my case.

I'll copy & paste my new update from DNA Tribes from the Tribes thread to here.

My updated DNA Tribes August 13, 2007 World Region Matches.
Typed up the old-fashioned way because I couldn't copy & paste from PDF file.

(tribes scores)..........MLI score
"TribeScores between the (0.25) and (0.75) are ordinary for a population." - DNA Tribes.


North African (0.49).......... 10.15
Finno-Ugrian (0.44)..........8.22
Mediterranean (0.44)..........8.18
Northwest European (0.36)..........7.99
Eastern European (0.24)..........4.22
Arabian (0.31)..........3.95
Asia Minor (0.31)..........3.22
Southern African (0.03) ..........1.35
Mestizo (0.1)..........0.64
India (0.05)..........0.61
North India (0.04)..........0.54
East African (0.05)..........0.52
West African (0.02)..........0.33
Malay Archipelago (0.03)..........0.22
Mongolian (0.02)..........0.18
Polynesian (0.01)..........0.17
India Tribal (0.02)..........0.11
Tibetan (0.01)..........0.10
North Chinese (0.01)..........0.5
Southeast Asian (0)..........0.4
Salishan (0)..........0.3
South Chinese (0)..........0.3
Australian (0)..........0.2
Japanese (0)..........0.1
Andean (0)..........0.1
Central American (0)..........0.0
Mexican (0)..........0.0
Artic (0)..........0.0
Athabaskan (0)..........0.0
Amazonian (0)..........0.0
NorthAmerindian (0)..........0.0
Ojibwa (0)..........0.0
__________________

[rainbow]

All this time I thought Minze was Chinese for Pearl. I just googled it found out it is German for Mint.
Rumple Minze is Peppermint Schapps.
My Chinese stepfather was a multi-lingual engineer, so I guess he gave me a German nickname, not a Chinese one.

http://www.babynames.com/name/MINZE

I love mint

My mom said she thought it meant Pearl.

http://www.babynames.com/name/TALLULAH

[Maria_W]

Part 7...

Part 7

1613- Pocahontas, daughter of Wahunsenacawah, was visiting her relatives, the Great King of the Potowomecke and Weroance Japasaw. Capt Argall arived and divised a plan with Japsaw, whom he called his adopted brother, to get Pocahontas aboard his ship. He explained to Japasaw that it was for the good of all that Matoake Amunute be captured in order that she be used as a bagaining tool to gain freedom of the eight English hostagesthat Wahunsenacawh washolding. Argall told Japasaw that if he did not cooperate with the English, they would no longer be allies, and they would no longer his brother. Japasaw obtained permission from his brother, the Great king of the Potowomeck, and the Potowomecke Council and helped Argall to carry out the plan. Japasaw was given a copper kettle and other gifts for his efforts...

Maria

[Maria_W]

Part 8....

1614-Matoake Amunute, daughter of Wahunsenacawh, was married to John Rolfe. The mother of Matoake Amunute is beleived by most authorities to have been a women of the Potowomecke Tribe. Wahunsenacawh sent, as a deputy to oversee the marriage, an old Uncle of Matoake Amunte, Opachisco. Opachisco is considered to have been the brother of Matoake Amunute mother and also a Potowomecke. He was accompaneid by two of his sons.

Maria

[Maria_W]

Part 9..

1616-Sir Thomas Dale took John Rolfe, Matoake Amunute, their son, Thomas Rolfe, and 10 of Matoakes Amunutes relatives and friends to England. It is quite likely that some of these Amerindian companions of Matoake Amunute were of the Potowomecke Tribe. Among the Amerindian companions of Matoake Amunute were 2 half sisters, her brother in law(Tomocomo/Uttamatomakkin) , three young men(including Abraham who died in England on August 6, 1616) and four girls. One of the half sisteres was Matachanna, the wife of the high priest, Tomocomo, above. The other halfsister was sent to Bermuda in 1621 and married there in 1622 to awell to do Englishmen at a large wedding ceremony of over 100 guests at the home of Governor Nathaniel Butler. Nathaniel Butler was the uncle of Thomas Butler of Maryland, the ancestor of many of the Butlers of Westmorland, Stafford, and King George County, some of whom decend from the Potowomecke Tribe....

Maria

[rainbow]

I posted my new scores in a few threads. Just saw this thread again and saw I hadn't put my new relevant scores here.

In my latest updated panel (October 2007) for Native American Indian, I now have:

Athabaskan (Alaskan) (0.12) 0.47
Cree (Kenistenoag, Saskatchewan, Canada) (0.01) 0.02
Coast Salish (British Columbia, Canada) (0.01) 0.01
Puna (Andean Region, Northwest Argentina) (0.01) 0.01
Coast Salish (0.01) 0.01
Cree (0.01) 0.01
********all the rest are scored 0.00******

On my updated (October 2007. Yes I did DNATribes updates in August and January too) report, from the "World Region", I have:

Mestizo (0.1) 0.88


What are everyone else's Mestizo scores? If it's already in another thread please tell me where. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a maze with all the different threads.
Or should there be a new thread just for Mestizo scores?


edit/add on: I have a TribeScore over (0.25) in my extended report for:
Khakas (Republic Of Khakassia) (0.28) 0.35

That is is south central Siberia. In Russia, the Khakas are a collection of the five nomadic Turkic-speaking tribes of Kacha, Kyzyl, Sagai, Beltir, and Koibal.

I wonder if this is relevant. Didn't the Amerinds come from Siberia?
I match Turkey. Maybe I have Turkic deep ancestry, not Amerind.

[DKF]

I got my new updated reports from DNA Tribes today. I still don't match Native Americans.

In the world region I match Finno-Ugric, and many others, but not the Americas or East Asia.

Only AncestryByDna says I have 17% Native American.

Rainbow - In reading your various posts I gather you have no known NA ancestry, and the only "candidate" is someone who resided in the New Amsterdam settlements of the 1600s. Considering there does not seem to be any doubt about your apparently close to 100% European ancestry, if you did match any NA tribe using the DNA Tribes test it would be a spurious match (false positive).

The test takes 15 alleles from each parent, with no way of the test knowing from which side (maternal, paternal) any of the scores come from, so in all likelihood you would at most have one out of 30 alleles potentially NA. This is simply too small to fall anywhere on the radar screen. The test is not designed to detect admixture, only compare total alleles to an assortment of world populations (with a serious under representation for the British Isles). For this test to work your mother and father would both have to have a large percentage NA, and from the same tribal group or geographical region.

Most of my matches actually do make sense on the DNA Tribes test. Genealogically my ancestry is Danelaw English first and foremost and then Scottish - with "other" not being too large to swamp the other two. The two top matches were Strthcylde Scottish and Danish and the third was Morocco. The latter and other Arab matches are spurious and a result of convergence (random chance) and I have discarded them. It appears that some would take some significance in these findings, but nothing would lead me to see any of this as meaningful. My well documented NA did not show, as I hoped it would not - or the European matches would be highly suspect.

Your 17% score of NA on the DNA Print test is within the zero confidence interval parameter. In other words your true score could be zero and someone with a zero score could have 17% Na or EA. Someone who is 90% PA German and 10% English obtained an East Asian score of 25%. Hidden ancestry? - not likely based on the area in which his ancestors lived and on a thoroughly researched genealogy. He used to joke about his Japanese grandmother (reflecting the interpretation given in the ABDNA literature). As you know the test will show 33% or more NA for Pakistanis and Greeks (for example), and simply cannot be trusted below the levels at which a mirror would give you the information sought on admixture (perhaps 30%).

I fully understand that people will believe what they want to believe, and a "score" that "seems" interesting or seems to confirm what one hoped to find will be latched upon and given meaning that the raw data does not contain. I am as "guilty" as anyone as I have done exactly the same thing.

We don't need over - interpretation of flawed test scores, we need an excellent biogrographical autosomal test with an unblemished record of being both reliable (consistently giving the same results) and valid (measuring what it purports to measure). In my opinion we must face the inevitable fact that we do not have such a measure, and while rumors continue to circulate about the appearance of a better mousetrap, nothing has yet surfaced. Knowing human nature I suspect that until then we will all try to make what we can out of the slender thread of valid information that may be embedded in those tests that are presently on the market. Hopefully we all use the "law of parsimony" in our interpretations, but this is not much "fun" so I expect it will be ignored by a lot of us as we see ghosts in the shadows.

DKF.

[rainbow]

This is a pic of my AncestryByDna triangle.