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Atlas of the Human Journey Revised

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Stevo
    I sent them an email awhile back about the claim that the Vikings descended from Y-Haplogroup I, as if all Vikings were exclusively members of that haplogroup. Certainly some of the Vikings were probably I1a and I1c, but probably many more of them were not.

    The Atlas used to say that the Celts may have descended from Y-Haplogroup I, but they exchanged that absurdity for the equally silly assertion about the Vikings.

    I think the claim that R1bs are descendants of Western European "Cro-Magnons" is without foundation, as well, but I haven't written them about that (yet).

    My own somewhat cynical opinion is that claims about Vikings and Cro-Magnons are marketing tools, i.e., they are designed to sell kits.
    True. As soon as I read items such as the above I became very sceptical.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Eki
      Here's the link to the study:

      http://vetinari.sitesled.com/finns.pdf

      As you can see in Table 1, the Finnish-speaking Southern Ostrobothnia has even more I1a (46.55%) than the Swedish-speaking Ostrobothnia (36%). I think this might mean that most of the early Scandinavian immigrants had already changed their language to Finnish before Sweden conquered Finland in the 12th century and new waves of Swedish immigrants, this time containing R1b, arrived.

      My closest matches with the British suggest we shared a common ancestor at latest in around 1000 AD, most likely in Norway. Archeological findings in Finnish Southern Ostrobothnia and Satakunta provinces, which share a lot of common with findings from Central Sweden and Norway, make me believe around 500 AD is a more accurate guess.
      Thank you for the very interesting link. I had previously believed that Finland had a quite homogenous population but apparently this is not true. The absence of R1b is puzzling when R1b3 is said to be among Sweden's oldest haplogroups. The german Hanseatic League certainly cannot be the source for the swedish R1b3s because that was a relatively recent migratory event.

      In terms of matches with british people, I note that british people are over-represented in the various databases. I also have a lot of 12/12 matches with british people which completely disappear at the 25 and 37 level. Ironically, even though I am confirmed as I1a, my closest STR matches at 37 markers have been haplogroup I1a1. I must have some missing relatives out there somewhere!

      I find it fascinating that there are such differences in migration patterns between y-dna and mt-dna in many areas. Currently, there does not seem to be a good archeological or linguistic explanation for this disparity.

      John

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Johnserrat
        In terms of matches with british people, I note that british people are over-represented in the various databases.
        True, most of my Norwegian matches have unfortunately only tested 12 markers, and not so many Norwegians have tested themselves. The MRCA calculations I made with some of British origin were 19/21 matches. The MRCA was 26 generations, MLE (Most Likely Estimate) was 21 generations and the 95% confidence interval was from 6 to 70 generations.

        Comment


        • #34
          mtDNA Haplogroup B

          Originally posted by JanBrenda
          I looked at my results again tonight, and found the changes rather exciting. The journey for my mtdna haplogroup (B) still had the same overall gist, but it appeared to be more detailed.

          I think the older description for it expressed confusion about how haplogroup B is found Native Americans, since they said it isn't found in Siberia. This new description, however, says it is, indeed, found in about 3% of the native Siberian population. Pretty big turnaround... snip
          Hi,

          If I read the map correctly, did you notice how they also have Hap B headed toward Australia? I'm not B, but found that interesting.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sonia
            Hi,

            If I read the map correctly, did you notice how they also have Hap B headed toward Australia? I'm not B, but found that interesting.
            Hello Sonia

            Yes, I did notice...seems the B haplogroup is more extensive than I thought it was. I wish I could find the old map I printed out, but I left it at my parents' house, so I won't be able to get it until this weekend.

            Comment


            • #36
              the label I1a1 is no longer being used

              Originally posted by Johnserrat
              Thank you for the very interesting link. I had previously believed that Finland had a quite homogenous population but apparently this is not true. The absence of R1b is puzzling when R1b3 is said to be among Sweden's oldest haplogroups. The german Hanseatic League certainly cannot be the source for the swedish R1b3s because that was a relatively recent migratory event.

              In terms of matches with british people, I note that british people are over-represented in the various databases. I also have a lot of 12/12 matches with british people which completely disappear at the 25 and 37 level. Ironically, even though I am confirmed as I1a, my closest STR matches at 37 markers have been haplogroup I1a1. I must have some missing relatives out there somewhere!

              I find it fascinating that there are such differences in migration patterns between y-dna and mt-dna in many areas. Currently, there does not seem to be a good archeological or linguistic explanation for this disparity.

              John
              I think I saw that all I1a's have the marker they were using to determine I1a1. Anybody that was I1a1 before, should now be labeled I1a.

              Comment


              • #37
                S TRANGSRUD: You are correct that FTDNA used to confirm I1a1 by testing P40. Apparently P40 did not delineate a separate subclade. However, I1a1 is still alive. It was formerly I1a4 and M227 is tested to confirm this subclade. I have tested negative for M227 and, as such, am clearly not I1a1.

                I overlooked the fact that the confirmed I1a1s on YSEARCH may have been confirmed using P40. I have no way to know without contacting the individuals involved, which I think I may do despite the fact that, even though they are my closest matches at the 37 marker level, they are probably still not related to me in the past 1,500 years.

                Thank you for your comment.

                John

                Comment


                • #38
                  I am assuming that they are making these changes based on the results of people who have submitted their DNA. Is this correct? Have they posted the number of respondents through the genographic project? I'd be interested in knowing how many people have participated. I've done it as has my husband and I also have a male relative who I've sent a kit to, as well as a friend. So that's four new samples to add to the mix.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Most of the work I saw in the 1980s had to do with skulls and physical features. I think we know a lot about how the Cro-Magnon people looked. Reading an article on autosomes from

                    http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/m...b78qa6vedc.pdf

                    It stated the problems of reading ancient DNA. I think much has changed in genetics since 1999. I was wondering about the various R1b populations. I do not know much about them.

                    the Aurignacian culture (32,000 - 21,000 BC) of the Cro-Magnon people, the first modern humans to enter Europe. The Cro-Magnons were the first documented human artists, making sophisticated cave paintings.

                    The present-day population of R1b in Western Europe are believed to be the descendants of a refugium in the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal), where the R1b1c haplogroup may have achieved genetic homogeneity. As conditions eased with the Allerød Oscillation in about 12,000 BC, descendants of this group migrated and eventually recolonised all of Western Europe, leading to the dominant position of R1b in variant degrees from Iberia to Scandinavia, so evident in haplogroup maps.

                    A second R1b1c population, reflected in a somewhat different distribution of haplotypes of the more rapidly varying Y-STR markers, appear to have survived alongside other haplogroups in Asia Minor, from where they spread out to repopulate Eastern Europe.



                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
                    I am a little confused from this thread about the first and second R1b1c populations. Can someone enlighten me? Please . . .

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by GregKiroKH
                      I am a little confused from this thread about the first and second R1b1c populations. Can someone enlighten me?
                      The first-mentioned R1b1c population is the one usually claimed to have spent the Ice Age in Iberia, and to have repopulated western Europe afterward.

                      The mention of a second R1b1c population has no attribution. I can only assume it is an extrapolation from the finding of some R1b1c in modern Turkey. But I see no reason at all to assume that the R1b1c in Anatolia (modern Turkey) launched itself across eastern Europe. I would be more likely to believe that the native strains of R1b1c in eastern Europe came from a southern Ukrainian refugium, or from west Asia.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        There is also a possibility that at least some of the R1b1c in Turkey got there as a result of the historically documented movement of the Galatians across Europe and into Anatolia in the early part of the 3rd century B.C.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I've noticed a funny thing about the new Geno Project.

                          I've got two different accounts there: one for my Y-DNA results and one for my mt haplogroup.

                          I've played the two Dr. Wells's mini footages in a row, one of them was about y-hg R1b and the other about mt-hg T.

                          Whereas on the R1b part the Doctor's comment was evidently involved, it was on the contrary amusing to see the different verve he had in talking about the T part...he was bored to death!
                          Comeon Spencer! I want to see the excitment in your eyes when you talk about T! We're relatives afterall...on the Y-DNA side

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by lgmayka
                            The first-mentioned R1b1c population is the one usually claimed to have spent the Ice Age in Iberia, and to have repopulated western Europe afterward.

                            The mention of a second R1b1c population has no attribution. I can only assume it is an extrapolation from the finding of some R1b1c in modern Turkey. But I see no reason at all to assume that the R1b1c in Anatolia (modern Turkey) launched itself across eastern Europe. I would be more likely to believe that the native strains of R1b1c in eastern Europe came from a southern Ukrainian refugium, or from west Asia.
                            Interesting thought . . . I do not think I can make a judgement. I thought I was over simplifying my facts when I thought each R1b1c had slightly different histories. So, I did not say anything. Maybe, it is too early to know for sure.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Stevo
                              Southern Sweden wasn't under water, though, and neither was Norway.

                              I think I1a got to Scandinavia early, and that R1b may have only arrived in the Neolithic Period, perhaps as late as 2,000 B.C. or thereabouts.
                              I found this nice concise introduction to the history of Norden. It says there were proto-Germanic people in South-Western Scandinavia between 2000 BC to 200 BC. I guess it's very possible that there were R1bs among them. But I still believe R1b didn't move to central and northern Scandinavia until late in the Iron Age and in the Middle Age.

                              http://www.faqs.org/faqs/nordic-faq/...section-4.html

                              For the following years, 2,000 B.C. - 200 B.C., the map of cultures in
                              Northern Europe looks almost static:
                              * In the North there are proto-Sámis hunting and moving all the way
                              from the Ural mountains to the Norwegian coast.
                              * From Gulf of Finland to River Volga there are proto-Finns,
                              * and south of them Indo-European Balts and Slavs.
                              * Denmark, Pomerania and the south-western Scandinavian peninsula
                              were inhabited by proto-Germanic people.
                              * In the South the domain of the Celts was south of River Elbe,
                              stretching to the Pyrenées, to the Mediterranean and over the Alps
                              and the Carpats.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Then again, if the Germanic people really originated from the north and the Celtic lived south of them, it's possible that the Germanic were mostly I1a and they got R1b later from the Celtic:

                                http://www.faqs.org/faqs/nordic-faq/...section-4.html

                                During the 4th century Alexander the Great conquers Persia, and then,
                                after his death, his realm is split in several large parts, whereafter
                                Rome starts to expand.

                                Then the Germanic culture began a slow expansion in southern
                                direction: At year 100 B.C. the woods of Central Europe were home to
                                both several Germanic tribes as well as to Celtic tribes, but in the
                                North the Germanics dominated from Trondheim and Åland to the plains
                                between River Rhine and River Neiße.

                                The Roman Empire expanded through France; the Celtic area diminished
                                and disappeared, and Germanic peoples became a major hassle for the
                                Roman Army. The solution was in the long run that Germanic men came to
                                take over the administration of the Empire and its armies at the same
                                time as the Germanics were Romanized in culture, beliefs and language.

                                As the Celts' dominance over Western Europe dissolved, the influences
                                from the Mediterranean region again reached the Baltic Sea and
                                Scandinavia. Trade with the Roman Empire increased, and might have
                                contributed to the peculiar phase of the European history called the
                                Migration Period when Germanic tribes and Asian tribes came to move
                                around on the European continent.

                                Comment

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