R1b newcomer in Scandinavia?

[mari]

R1bs the male counterpart to mt-h, right?

[Eki]

Here are some Y-DNA results from various Swedish provinces, Swedish Saami and Finnish Österbotten from http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201651a.html

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5379/496/1600/sweden.jpg

Unfortunately they don't have data for Jämtland, Hälsingland and Medelpad, which I would be the most interested in.

For reference, Swedish provinces:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Sweden

[Eki]

maybe R1B was first?

Maybe back when England and Sweden were joined by land? When the sea rose, England became an island. A few R1B's stayed on the mainland, and traces of their genetic group can still be found there.

It's of course possible, but needs evidence to proof it. I don't think there's even evidence yet that Scandinavia was continuously populated from Stone Age to modern times. The first humans in Scandinavia might well have left when the climate got colder again.

[M.O'Connor]

maybe R1B was first?

Maybe back when England and Sweden were joined by land? When the sea rose, England became an island. A few R1B's stayed on the mainland, and traces of their genetic group can still be found there.

[Noaide]

R1b expansion

Thats my working hypothesis too, I am going trough all the R1b haplotypes for Sweden, not finished yet. I did found a few unique haplotypes all confined to south Sweden and these uniqe haplotypes have not expanded within Sweden. The great majority of haplotypes is seen in various degree on the European continent, there is no doubt to me that there has been a great expansion of R1b from the European continent to Scandinavia within the last 1 000 years. I am not saying that it could not have been earlier pioneers, but the rate of R1b have not been like frequency seen today in Scandinavia. We dont need to go further back in time than to the Finn expansion into northern Scandinavia to see how quickly the genetic picture can change in some regions just within a few centuries.

Noaide

And I have said earlier that R1b may have been in Southern Sweden for a long time, but it does not look like they have migrated to Central and Northern Sweden until within the last 1000 years or so.

[Eki]

I took a quick look at ysearch for R1b3 and did a genetic distance comparison based on the only scandinavian sample from Norway (none appear available from Sweden or Finland). The nearest matches were from Ireland and England in places that could easily be accounted for by Viking immigration.

The traffic between Scandinavia and the British Isles was not one way during the Viking times and later. British, Scottish and Irish could have settled in Scandinavia as well as Scandinavians settled in the British Isles.

[Johnserrat]

Germans, Danes, Dutch/Frisians and British?

And I have said earlier that R1b may have been in Southern Sweden for a long time, but it does not look like they have migrated to Central and Northern Sweden until within the last 1000 years or so.

I took a quick look at ysearch for R1b3 and did a genetic distance comparison based on the only scandinavian sample from Norway (none appear available from Sweden or Finland). The nearest matches were from Ireland and England in places that could easily be accounted for by Viking immigration. The Dutch and German results had a much greater genetic distance.

I realize the frailties of the ysearch database, but still am doubtful that the R1b3 STR variation is the result of recent migration. I think you are correct to acknowledge that this group may have been in Southern Sweden for a very long time.

The sequence of events you suggest for I1a-AS travelling north and evolving into I1a-N and uN, and then followed by later emigration of I1a-AS to scandinavia makes a lot of sense. It is easy to lose sight of the time frames we are talking about. Unfortunately, not much is known of the various populations prior to the Romans.

John

[Eki]

Combining the variances or average squared differences over 28 markers, using the SMGF database populations for these four fixed defining haplotypes, as the varieties march north they get younger as measured by the variances.

AS = 1 (normalization)
N = .74
uN1 = .56
uN2 = .47

Remember, according to theory the descendant population from a founder grows in variance linearly with elapsed generations since the founding.

My best guess as to age of the AS I1a is roughly 10,000 years.

Ken"[/url]

It could be true what Ken said. It's very much possible that I1a-AS is older than I1a-N or uN, and might have been born in Germany or maybe even Northern France. But it's also possible that someone of I1a-AS migrated further north and his descendants mutated to I1a-N and uN, and then later some of the older I1a-AS followed them.

[Paul_Johnsen]

Yes, according to Nordvedts map, Finland and Norway have low percentage of I1a-AS (as of all I1a) compared to Denmark and Sweden. Finland 8%, Norway 22%, Sweden 32% and Denmark 47%. I think it may be possible that I1a-AS arrived in Northern Scandinavia with R1b, while I1a-N and I1a-uN already were there.

http://www.northwestanalysis.net/Iweb5.jpg

Unlikely if I understand Nortvedt correctly. Accourding to Nortvedt's estimates, the common Finnish Ia hadn't been born yet by the time Western Norway was first settled.

"Subject: I1a's Journey to Norway Through Space and Time
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:01:40 -0600


I obtained the variance or averaged square difference for a sequence of four varieties of I1a. I'll call them AS, N, uN1, and uN2 See www.northwestanalysis.net for more information on these four varieties of I1a and their modal haplotypes. I picked them because they show distinct shifts in their geographical places of existence as indicated by pedigree origins in SMGF database.

AS = 14,22,13-14,8,12 at DYS390,391,385,455,462
N = 14,23,14-14,8,13
uN1 = 14,23,14-15,8,13,461=12[DNAH]
uN2 = 14,23,14-15,8,13,461=11[DNAH]

AS has its geographic center in Germany/Denmark
N has its geographic center in Denmark/Sweden
uN1 has its geographic center in Sweden
uN2 has its geographic center in Norway

Combining the variances or average squared differences over 28 markers, using the SMGF database populations for these four fixed defining haplotypes, as the varieties march north they get younger as measured by the variances.

AS = 1 (normalization)
N = .74
uN1 = .56
uN2 = .47

Remember, according to theory the descendant population from a founder grows in variance linearly with elapsed generations since the founding.

My best guess as to age of the AS I1a is roughly 10,000 years.

Ken"

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2006-06/1151643700

[Eki]

What group of emigrants would be postulated as showing a similar degree of R1b3 STR variation entering Sweden?

Germans, Danes, Dutch/Frisians and British?

Sweden was also a very prominent super power in Europe in the 17th century:

http://www.answers.com/topic/rise-of-sweden-as-a-great-power

And I have said earlier that R1b may have been in Southern Sweden for a long time, but it does not look like they have migrated to Central and Northern Sweden until within the last 1000 years or so.

[Johnserrat]

The Nordtvedt subdivision of I1a based on relatively few markers has troubled me for some time. I greatly appreciate the amount of time and work that has gone into his analysis, but has this analysis been validated by any published studies? Hopefully, some company will find further SNPs to delineate I1a further so that the appropriate conclusions can be made.

In terms of the interesting R1b ongoing debate, at least in Sweden it appears that R1b3 is a founder population based on the finding that it has the highest STR variation of ANY of the haplogroups found in Sweden. I do not see how you can get around that finding by arguing recent immigration as the cause. What group of emigrants would be postulated as showing a similar degree of R1b3 STR variation entering Sweden?

John

[Eki]

Regarding the lacking R1b in Finland; they also seem to lack several serveal strains of Ia according to Nordtvedt's website. Couldn't this possible be due to an early founder effect in Finland?

Yes, according to Nordvedts map, Finland and Norway have low percentage of I1a-AS (as of all I1a) compared to Denmark and Sweden. Finland 8%, Norway 22%, Sweden 32% and Denmark 47%. I think it may be possible that I1a-AS arrived in Northern Scandinavia with R1b, while I1a-N and I1a-uN already were there.

http://www.northwestanalysis.net/Iweb5.jpg

[cobramach]

Perhaps you should explain why you don't think the following is "a bit extreme."

I will not pretend to be a genetic scholar, but I think what is being said is that I1a is found with little influence from R1b in certain areas of Scandinavia. Nowhere did I see a pronouncement of National Socialist racial manifesto. We are also conversing with people who write very well in English, but it is not their primary language.

[Paul_Johnsen]

Regarding the lacking R1b in Finland; they also seem to lack several serveal strains of Ia according to Nordtvedt's website. Couldn't this possible be due to an early founder effect in Finland? Didn't also Northern Sweden and Finland have very low and isolated populations up till recent times?

And how would you explain the high frequency of R1b in the West of Norway/Southern Norway? When did they come? Where did they all come from? Why did bring so few other Haplogroups with them? Why did they come to the West Coast of Norway?

[Eki]

Noaide talks about I1a in Finland being "so pure cleaned from R1b", as if R1b were dirty and impure, and I am the one being insulting? That's funny.

That's your interpretation. If I say your claim about "haplo-Nazis" is pure excrement without any gold nuggets, it doesn't mean that excrement is in some way superior or wonderful and gold is dirty and impure. It seems more like you are eager to claim that R1b is such a wonderful haplogroup that it got to every part of the world early. If I claimed R1b got to South America and Australia just within the last 500 years, you'd probably deny it.

Please explain why N drops off so radically west of Finland.

Probably because it most likely came from the east and has spread to west of Finland mainly within the last 1000 years. Maybe the thick forests in Finland, enough space for the sparse population, and the Gulf of Bothnia have slowed their migration. There is a lot of N in Northern Scandinavia, and there is a lot of historical records from the last 500 years that Finns have settled there.