R1b newcomer in Scandinavia?

[Noaide]

haplo nazis?

Thats ok Stevo,

This is not mine or Eki's statements I refered to earlier, but from a scientist in genetics, then obviously there is a need to look more at the information available based on the contradicting evidence from the Swedish and Finnish scientist. If you cant accept that then who is then the "haplo-nazi"?

Noaide

[Stevo]

. . . the I1a in Western Finland so pure cleaned from R1b

Your own words speak for themselves.

I find such sentiments repugnant, not to mention baseless.

I have no use for you.

You can keep your "pure" Scandinavian homeland.

[Noaide]

Obviously when a discussion partner get hanged up in the wording in the argument and not in its content he may have serious problems contesting the argument.

Noaide

[Stevo]

Obviously when a discussion partner get hanged up in the wording in the argument and not in its content he may have serious problems contesting the argument.

Noaide

There is no argument. You ignore the facts and press your own interpretations into the service of preconceived notions based upon your own ideas of the "purity" and "superiority" of your own y-haplogroup, as you so clearly expressed them above when you referred to I1a "so pure cleaned from R1b."

Of course, that's a laugh, since Finland is overwhelmingly N, and y-haplogroup R outnumbers I in Scandinavia, which also has Q, E3b, J, and, I believe, G.

But continue to content yourself with visions of the Golden Age of a "pure," "clean" I1a Scandinavia, if that's what floats your boat.

[Noaide]

"Superiority haplogroups"

Where you have this "superiority" wording from? I have never used or expressed such wording. If you are oversensitive about the particular word "pure" it is not my problem, I was only illustrating the change. You read my postings like the Devil reads the Bible.

And I do not ignore the facts, I am fully aware of the STR variation of R1b among the Swedes and have suggested explanation for it, but at the same time aware of lack of R1b across the Finnish border, that you have not tried to give an explonation for.

Noaide

There is no argument. You ignore the facts and press your own interpretations into the service of preconceived notions based upon your own ideas of the "purity" and "superiority" of your own y-haplogroup, as you so clearly expressed them above when you referred to I1a "so pure cleaned from R1b."

Of course, that's a laugh, since Finland is overwhelming N, and y-haplogroup R outnumbers I in Scandinavia, which also has Q, E3b, J, and, I believe, G.

But continue to content yourself with visions of the Golden Age of a "pure," "clean" I1a Scandinavia, if that's what floats your boat.

[Stevo]

I have nothing further to say to you.

Believe what you wish. Your words speak for themselves. I will return to discussions with the other "impure" types like myself.

[cobramach]

I think I will leave this thread to you haplo-Nazis so that you can revel in your "purity" without my interference.

Haplo-Nazi? Man, that is a bit extreme. I don't need to go into recent history to explain why.

[Stevo]

Haplo-Nazi? Man, that is a bit extreme. I don't need to go into recent history to explain why.

Perhaps you should explain why you don't think the following is "a bit extreme."

. . . the I1a in Western Finland so pure cleaned from R1b

[Eki]

There is no argument. You ignore the facts and press your own interpretations into the service of preconceived notions based upon your own ideas of the "purity" and "superiority" of your own y-haplogroup, as you so clearly expressed them above when you referred to I1a "so pure cleaned from R1b."

Of course, that's a laugh, since Finland is overwhelmingly N, and y-haplogroup R outnumbers I in Scandinavia, which also has Q, E3b, J, and, I believe, G.

But continue to content yourself with visions of the Golden Age of a "pure," "clean" I1a Scandinavia, if that's what floats your boat.

As far as I remember, Noaide himself is a Saami of haplogroup N, so I can't imagine any reason why he would want to have a ""pure, clean I1a Scandinavia", like you think he seems to do. He just wonders the same fact that there is very little R1b in Finland and that most of it is found among the Swedish-speaking Finns. Why don't you try to explain that fact with your own theory before starting to throw insults on people?

[Stevo]

As far as I remember, Noaide himself is a Saami of haplogroup N, so I can't imagine any reason why he would want to have a ""pure, clean I1a Scandinavia", like you think he seems to do. He just wonders the same fact that there is very little R1b in Finland and that most of it is found among the Swedish-speaking Finns. Why don't you try to explain that fact with your own theory before starting to throw insults on people?

Noaide talks about I1a in Finland being "so pure cleaned from R1b", as if R1b were dirty and impure, and I am the one being insulting? That's funny.

Please explain why N drops off so radically west of Finland.

R1b is found in smaller amounts in Finland because it is found in smaller amounts in Finland. Every y-haplogroup has points beyond which it is not found in large amounts. The amount of R1b in Finland - where it is not completely absent - says absolutely nothing about its age in Scandinavia, where it is present in large amounts, especially in Denmark, where it is the single biggest y-haplogroup.

I really do need to stop posting in this thread. Every time I become engaged in a discussion with you, I become angry, and that's not good.

It's better to avoid people one doesn't like.

[Noaide]

Why do N drop west of Finland?

Yes why do N3 freq drop when you move into Finland or into Norway for that matter. Its not the discussion of this tread but anyway.

N3 is have a high density in especially Finnic-Ugric speaking populations like Finns, Saami, Estonians, Komi and other peoples east and south of Finland.

Before 1500 century much of it was confined to the Finn villages along the south and west coast of Finland and among the Saami communities in Norway, Finland and Sweden (of course with the later Finn immigration, the N3 frequency among some Saami populations got even higher), however of course there was pioneers leaving north and westwards before others.

In the 1500 century there was major settlement waves from Savo into inland Finland and into northern Finland. These settlers continued into the long Tornio valley area between Sweden and Finland. The migration also entered many Saami communities in Norway, Sweden and Finland. Some settlers even went deep into Sweden and even reached the deep forests in East Norway. The genetic traces can even been seen today. Of course noone at that time knew their haplogroup and their deep origin, so many I1a also back migrated to Sweden and Norway from Finland.

There exist a special N3 haplotypes that seem native to the Saami, but these are confined to their groups and have not expanded into other populations. These are only observed among Inari, Skolte and Kildin Saami.

So in other words N3 seem to follow finnic-ugric speaking populations.

Noaide

[Eki]

Noaide talks about I1a in Finland being "so pure cleaned from R1b", as if R1b were dirty and impure, and I am the one being insulting? That's funny.

That's your interpretation. If I say your claim about "haplo-Nazis" is pure excrement without any gold nuggets, it doesn't mean that excrement is in some way superior or wonderful and gold is dirty and impure. It seems more like you are eager to claim that R1b is such a wonderful haplogroup that it got to every part of the world early. If I claimed R1b got to South America and Australia just within the last 500 years, you'd probably deny it.

Please explain why N drops off so radically west of Finland.

Probably because it most likely came from the east and has spread to west of Finland mainly within the last 1000 years. Maybe the thick forests in Finland, enough space for the sparse population, and the Gulf of Bothnia have slowed their migration. There is a lot of N in Northern Scandinavia, and there is a lot of historical records from the last 500 years that Finns have settled there.

[Paul_Johnsen]

Regarding the lacking R1b in Finland; they also seem to lack several serveal strains of Ia according to Nordtvedt's website. Couldn't this possible be due to an early founder effect in Finland? Didn't also Northern Sweden and Finland have very low and isolated populations up till recent times?

And how would you explain the high frequency of R1b in the West of Norway/Southern Norway? When did they come? Where did they all come from? Why did bring so few other Haplogroups with them? Why did they come to the West Coast of Norway?

[cobramach]

Perhaps you should explain why you don't think the following is "a bit extreme."

I will not pretend to be a genetic scholar, but I think what is being said is that I1a is found with little influence from R1b in certain areas of Scandinavia. Nowhere did I see a pronouncement of National Socialist racial manifesto. We are also conversing with people who write very well in English, but it is not their primary language.

[Eki]

Regarding the lacking R1b in Finland; they also seem to lack several serveal strains of Ia according to Nordtvedt's website. Couldn't this possible be due to an early founder effect in Finland?

Yes, according to Nordvedts map, Finland and Norway have low percentage of I1a-AS (as of all I1a) compared to Denmark and Sweden. Finland 8%, Norway 22%, Sweden 32% and Denmark 47%. I think it may be possible that I1a-AS arrived in Northern Scandinavia with R1b, while I1a-N and I1a-uN already were there.

http://www.northwestanalysis.net/Iweb5.jpg