R1b newcomer in Scandinavia?

[Noaide]

I am taking this discussion to our own thread.

Evidence suggest R1b is a newcomer to Scandinavia, this is table 11 from Dupuy 2005 the Norwegian y-dna paper. The tree numbers after each haplotype is the haplotype frequency in Norway, Europe and Scandinavia respectly. The 6 most frequent R1b haplotypes is very common in continental Europe, while I1a, R1a and N3 haplotypes seems native to Scandinavia.

Non Scand. N=15,893 Scandinavian N=1,480

R1b:
14 10 16 24 11 13 13 11,14 12 2.55 2.85 1.69
14 10 16 23 11 13 13 11,14 12 1.19 1.46 0.95
14 10 16 24 11 13 13 11,13 12 1.19 0.22 0.54
14 10 16 24 10 13 13 11,14 12 1.13 1.35 0.68
14 10 16 25 11 13 13 11,14 12 0.74 0.50 0.20

I:

14 10 16 24 10 13 13 11,15 12 0.74 0.38 0.14
14 9 16 23 10 11 13 14,15 14 4.36 0.06 2.57
14 9 16 23 10 11 13 14,14 14 2.77 0.26 5.95
15 9 16 22 10 11 13 13,14 14 2.66 0.13 1.22
16 9 16 22 10 11 13 13,14 14 1.36 0.01 0.81
14 9 16 22 10 11 13 13,14 14 1.36 0.95 1.49

R1a

14 9 16 22 10 11 13 14,14 14 1.30 0.42 1.35
15 11 17 25 11 11 13 11,14 12 2.66 0.08 0.47
15 10 17 25 11 11 13 11,14 12 1.59 0.35 0.47
15 10 17 25 10 11 13 11,14 12 0.91 0.30 0.14
16 11 17 25 10 11 13 11,14 12 0.79 0.04 0.20
16 10 16 25 11 11 13 11,14 12 0.79 0.20 0.27

N3

15 10 16 25 11 11 13 11,14 12 0.74 0.09 0.27
14 11 16 24 11 14 14 11,13 12 0.74 0.04 6.76
14 11 16 23 11 14 14 11,13 12 0.40 0.07 1.15
14 11 16 24 11 14 14 1.14 12 0.28 0.00 0.07
14 11 16 24 10 14 14 11,13 12 0.28 0.01 0.95
14 10 16 23 11 14 14 11,13 12 0.28 0.01 0.88
14 10 16 23 10 14 14 11,13 12 0.17 0.02 0.97

"The matches obtained are divided into two population groups: non-Scandinavian and Scandinavian. Four of the most common Norwegian haplotypes within BR*(xDE, J, N3,P) were almost 25 times more frequent in the Norwegian than in the non-Scandinavian population sample. The haplotype frequencies in haplogroup BR*(xDE, J, N3, P) were comparable in size in Scandinavian population samples. Some “internal” differences were observed between the Nordic countries. For instance, haplotype 14-9-16-23-10-11-13-14,15-14 matched 14 Swedish, 0 Danish, 14 Finnish and 10 Norwegian samples whereas haplotype14-9-16-23-10-11-13-14,14-14 matched 41 Swedish, 1 Danish, 34 Finnish and 12 Norwegian samples. These two haplotypes correspond to the “Nordic haplotype” with alleles 14-23-10-11-13, defined by DYS19-390-391-392-393, respectively (Tambets et al. 2004). They belong to subgroup I1a which accounts for most of BR*(xDE, J, N3, P) in Scandinavia (Rootsi et al. 2004). Within haplogroup R1a, the most common Norwegian haplotype was 30 times more frequent in the Norwegian than in the non-Scandinavian population samples. The most common haplotype within N3: 14-11-16-24-11-14-14-11,13-12, was most frequent in Scandinavian samples and matched 90 Finnish, 7 Swedish and 3 Norwegian samples. The non-Scandinavian matches were observed in Estonia (4 matches), Lithuania (1 match), Russia (1 match) and Germany (1 match). Another frequent N3 haplotype: 14-11-16-23-11-14-14-11,13-12 matched 11 Finnish , 5 Swedish and 1 Norwegian samples. The non-Scandinavian
matches were observed in Estonia (5 matches), Romania (2 matches), Germany (2 matches), Poland (1 match), and Ukraine (1 match)."

Source: Supp data Dupuy 2005, Tab 11 comment.


Also R1b is vary rare in the I1a rich Saami/Lapp populations and in Ostrobotnia, Finland, further suggesting a late arrival of R1b.

Noaide

[Stevo]

Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1b3 were found to have the highest STR variation among all haplogroups and could thus be considered to be one of the earliest major male lineages present in Sweden.

The above is a quote from Y-chromosome Diversity in Sweden – A Long-Time Perspective, a study conducted by researchers from the following institutions: The National Board of Forensic Medicine, Department of Forensic Genetics and Forensic Toxicology, Linköping, Sweden; Department of Archaeology, University of Tromsø, Norway; Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University, Sweden.

Tough choice: Noaide's amateur interpretation of data or the conclusions of a study conducted by genuine Scandinavian scientists.

Did the study from which Noaide draws his data interpret it the way he is doing? My guess is no.

Here is a link to the Swedish study quoted above.

[Eki]

The above is a quote from Y-chromosome Diversity in Sweden – A Long-Time Perspective, a study conducted by researchers from the following institutions: The National Board of Forensic Medicine, Department of Forensic Genetics and Forensic Toxicology, Linköping, Sweden; Department of Archaeology, University of Tromsø, Norway; Department of Evolutionary Biology, Uppsala University, Sweden.

Tough choice: Noaide's amateur interpretation of data or the conclusions of a study conducted by genuine Scandinavian scientists.

Did the study from which Noaide draws his data interpret it the way he is doing? My guess is no.

Here is a link to the Swedish study quoted above.

1) The Swedish scientists use the words "could be considered" instead "must be considered" or even "can be considered", meaning they are not sure and could be guessing.
2) They used the words "one of the earliest", not "the earliest", neither did they give any exact figures for the times the haplogroups entered Scandinavia. For example, if I1a arrived 5000 years ago, R1a 3000 years ago and R1b 1000 years ago, what they say would still be true, R1b would still be one of the earliest major haplogroups in Sweden.

[Johnserrat]

It would be nice to read both of these papers without having to pay $30 each for the privilege. Maybe FTDNA could expand its library by publishing some of these topical papers so that we are not left to guess as to their implications?

John

[Stevo]

1) The Swedish scientists use the words "could be considered" instead "must be considered" or even "can be considered", meaning they are not sure and could be guessing.
2) They used the words "one of the earliest", not "the earliest", neither did they give any exact figures for the times the haplogroups entered Scandinavia. For example, if I1a arrived 5000 years ago, R1a 3000 years ago and R1b 1000 years ago, what they say would still be true, R1b would still be one of the earliest major haplogroups in Sweden.

No, Eki. The major y-haplogroups in Scandinavia are I1a, R1a, and R1b. R1b could not arrive dead last and be considered "one of the earliest."

Besides, Noiade's point is that the rather significant level of R1b in Scandinavia is the product of "recent" immigration. That Swedish study I quoted says otherwise.

It is a fact that R1b is the single biggest y-haplogroup in Denmark.

What of that?

The product of recent immigration?

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

[Eki]

It is a fact that R1b is the single biggest y-haplogroup in Denmark.

What of that?

The product of recent immigration?

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf

But you can also see that there are more R1b in Germany and the Netherlands than there are in Denmark, and you can also see that there are less R1b in Northern Denmark than in Southern Denmark. Furthermore, R1b has gotten foothold mainly on thin slices of the southern coasts of Sweden and Norway and on the western coast of Finland. I think that implies that R1b has not been as long in Northern Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland as I1a, which has advanced far further to inland.

http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/R1b_large_RG.jpg

[Paul_Johnsen]

I'm definitely no expert, but I think you could get some pretty strange result by your method (if I understand you correctly). For instance according to the article: "the most common haplotype within R1a represents 10% in the overall Norwegian population sample but 40% in samples from the south".

Personally I very much doubt that this particular norse R1a haplotype came from south to the north (or any norse R1a haplotype for that matter given the Central Asian connection). To me the 40% frequency indicates the the norse R1a has a lower diversity in the South. If one wants to measure the origins of a particular cluster of haplotypes, I think it would be far better to create a modal and see where it has its greatest diversity (but as I said I'm no expert).

N3 and Norse R1a are seems to me to be better candidates for the title of latecomers given their distribution patterns and their apparent low level of diversity.

[Eki]

N3 and Norse R1a are seems to me to be better candidates for the title of latecomers given their distribution patterns and their apparent low level of diversity.

I'd like to remind that not only long presence causes high diversity, but also the incoming immigrants being already diverse. For example, I'm quite sure the haplogroups in the US are quite diverse even if they haven't been there for more than few hundred years.

[Paul_Johnsen]

I'd like to remind that not only long presence causes high diversity, but also the incoming immigrants being already diverse. For example, I'm quite sure the haplogroups in the US are quite diverse even if they haven't been there for more than few hundred years.

No doubt, but it would be very odd if say J2 only appeared on the east coast.

[Stevo]

But you can also see that there are more R1b in Germany and the Netherlands than there are in Denmark, and you can also see that there are less R1b in Northern Denmark than in Southern Denmark. Furthermore, R1b has gotten foothold mainly on thin slices of the southern coasts of Sweden and Norway and on the western coast of Finland. I think that implies that R1b has not been as long in Northern Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland as I1a, which has advanced far further to inland.

http://www.relativegenetics.com/geno...b_large_RG.jpg

Where is the supporting documentation for your Relative Genetics map? Besides, this debate is over how long R1b has been in Scandinavia, not its distribution there.

This map comes with an extensive bibliography.

What you and Noaide argue, Eki, amounts to special pleading that ignores the findings of the scientific study by Scandinavian researchers that I cited earlier. It's all about what you think the data means, despite evidence to the contrary.

For some odd reason you want I1a to be the only "true" Scandinavian y-haplogroup, and you are willing to interpret everything to fit that desire and to deny anything, in whatever expert guise it may appear, that contradicts it.

Here again is a reminder of what those Scandinavian researchers said.

Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1b3 were found to have the highest STR variation among all haplogroups and could thus be considered to be one of the earliest major male lineages present in Sweden.

Do you really imagine that those scientists went to big Swedish cities and studied folks with German and British surnames and then claimed that R1b may be one of the earliest Swedish y-haplogroups? Don't you think they know how to conduct a genetic study?

You cannot produce any real evidence that R1b is a newcomer to Scandinavia, only your assertions and conjecture.

How often and how frequently must we repeat this futile debate?

[Noaide]

Lappalainen 2006

For some odd reason you want I1a to be the only "true" Scandinavian y-haplogroup, and you are willing to interpret everything to fit that desire and to deny anything, in whatever expert guise it may appear, that contradicts it.

Stevo,

Do you not ignore some evidence here? As Eki has pointed out many times, why is the I1a in Western Finland so pure cleaned from R1b and why do the R1b occurence drop as a rock as you pass the border between Vasterbotten in Sweden to Osterbotnia in Finland while the presence of I1a do not change? Why is there such a sharp border line here? Many of the I1a lineages are shared with both Norway and Sweden and also inside Finland there is a sharp border between Eastern and Western Finland with extreme occurence of N3 in East and high occurence of I1a in the West.

I know from a paper by Raitio that in Northern Finland there is one location with a extreme 93% N3 and 7% R1a, this is probably due to foundereffects, bottlenecks or genetic drift. Why cannot the same events have happend in populations other places in Scandinavia and especially in earlier isolated places all over Norway? I am fully convinced high clusterings of I1a have occured several places, and a earlier immigration of a high frequency I1a group into Finland have occured.

You refer to the Swedish research paper, I refer (again) to the Finnish one stating:

"In addition to eastern affiliations, close ties can be seen
between Finland and the neighboring populations in the Baltic
region and Scandinavia as well as other European populations.
The most evident link to the Scandinavian region is the high
frequency of haplogroup I1a only in Scandinavia (Rootsi et al.,
2004) and Western Finland, where this haplogroup reaches its
highest reported frequency of 40%. This suggests a major
Swedish influence in the western parts of Finland. The low
frequency of R1b, the most common Y-chromosomal haplogroup
in Western Europe, is intriguing, as it is considerably
more common in Sweden (Tambets et al., 2004). This
distribution pattern may indicate that the migrations bringing
R1b to Scandinavia were relatively late and had only minor
effect in Finland. The absence of haplogroups J and especially
I1b commonly found in the Balkans and Eastern Europe
demonstrate the lack of gene flow from southeastern Europe to
Finland."

Source: Lappalainen 2006

Noaide

[Eki]

Stevo,

Do you not ignore some evidence here? As Eki has pointed out many times, why is the I1a in Western Finland so pure cleaned from R1b and why do the R1b occurence drop as a rock as you pass the border between Vasterbotten in Sweden to Osterbotnia in Finland while the presence of I1a do not change? Why is there such a sharp border line here? Many of the I1a lineages are shared with both Norway and Sweden and also inside Finland there is a sharp border between Eastern and Western Finland with extreme occurence of N3 in East and high occurence of I1a in the West.

Exactly. It's because of that simple "oddity" why I wonder, not because I want I1a to be the oldest haplogroup here. I want historical facts more than anything, and I don't believe the early history (or pre-history) of Finland is accurate in its current form. Because of the distribution of I1a and R1b and what little is known about the early history of Finland, I believe R1b may not have been in Central Sweden long before the Swedish invasion in the 12th century.

[Noaide]

Exactly. It's because of that simple "oddity" why I wonder, not because I want I1a to be the oldest haplogroup here. I want historical facts more than anything, and I don't believe the early history (or pre-history) of Finland is accurate in its current form. Because of the distribution of I1a and R1b and what little is known about the early history of Finland, I believe R1b may not have been in Central Sweden long before the Swedish invasion in the 12th century.

I agree, it is only a question about facts, nothing else. If I had seen R1b in plenty on the west coast of Finland and among the Saami I would have no reason to doubt any early arrival of R1b. The old Svea kingdom was confined to southern Sweden (and they probably interacted much with the Danes and the other nations on the continent, they were probably even related, the same people) with the old Norse and Saami populations bordering to the north around Jamtland and Medelpad. The Saami probably even extented further south in remote forest and highland areas.

Noaide

[Eki]

First when Finland was part of Sweden, the history was written by the Swedes, who were biased to the Swedish importance in the Finnish history. Then when Finland prepared to become independent and after that, the Finnish historians tried to play down the Swedish importance and highlighted mainly the importance of Finno-Ugric people. I think there are more to it than just the Swedes and the Finns. I believe that others, like Norwegians and the Saami, have had more impact in the Finnish history and pre-history than they are given credit for.

Some more "oddities" in the Finnish early history: Russian chronicles tell how Norwegians and "jems" waged war against Karelians and Novgorodians. Finnish historians believe that the "jems" mean people from Häme (Finnish province next to Satakunta, 35% I1a). I believe they might have been either people from Jämtland itself or people from Jämtland who had settled in Western Finland. Nobody seems to wonder WHY Norwegians and "jems" fought as allies. I think the obvious reason would be that they had something in common. What? The language? Family ties?

From 1320 to 1365, Norway and Sweden had the same king, Magnus VII of Norway aka Magnus II of Sweden. Despite having the same king, Norway and Sweden made peace with Novgorod separately. Sweden in 1323 and Norway in 1326. Why? I think that's a bit "odd" too.

[Stevo]

Stevo,

Do you not ignore some evidence here? As Eki has pointed out many times, why is the I1a in Western Finland so pure cleaned from R1b

"[S]o pure cleaned from R1b"? What the hell is that all about?

I think I am getting the picture here.

What about the fact that N drops like a rock west of Finland?

Recent migration from Siberia?

I think I will leave this thread to you haplo-Nazis so that you can revel in your "purity" without my interference.