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  • Migrations within Scandinavia

    After compiling a database over Y-STR 2 600 samples from Norway, Sweden and Finland I have tried to see based on hints from Eki, if there is any patterns of migration between the countries. The first hypothesis to be tested: Did norsemen migrate from Trøndelag area into Vasterbotten in Sweden and Ostrobothnia in Finland.

    I picked the most frequent haplotype in Mid-Norway at a rate of 3.5% (North-Norway 3.4%, East-Norway 2.6%, Oslo 3.3%, Bergen 2.2%, Southern Norway 1.3%, West Norway 1.0%). In Sweden the haplotype appeared only in Vasterbotten 4.9%, Gotland 2.5% and Skaraborg 2.2%, in Finland it only appeared in Satakunta 2.1% and South Ostrobothina 1.7%.

    The haplotype is seen everywhere in Norway, at least at this resolution of geography, but only a few places in Sweden mostly in northern Sweden and in two provinces in Finland.

    The haplotype is:

    19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
    15 12 16 22 10 11 13 13 14

    Noaide


  • #2
    Originally posted by Noaide
    After compiling a database over Y-STR 2 600 samples from Norway, Sweden and Finland I have tried to see based on hints from Eki, if there is any patterns of migration between the countries. The first hypothesis to be tested: Did norsemen migrate from Trøndelag area into Vasterbotten in Sweden and Ostrobothnia in Finland.

    I picked the most frequent haplotype in Mid-Norway at a rate of 3.5% (North-Norway 3.4%, East-Norway 2.6%, Oslo 3.3%, Bergen 2.2%, Southern Norway 1.3%, West Norway 1.0%). In Sweden the haplotype appeared only in Vasterbotten 4.9%, Gotland 2.5% and Skaraborg 2.2%, in Finland it only appeared in Satakunta 2.1% and South Ostrobothina 1.7%.

    The haplotype is seen everywhere in Norway, at least at this resolution of geography, but only a few places in Sweden mostly in northern Sweden and in two provinces in Finland.

    The haplotype is:

    19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
    15 12 16 22 10 11 13 13 14

    Noaide

    If you compare the haplotypes at http://www.yhrd.org/index.html , you'll notice that the most common haplotype in Southern Norway and Oslo is the third most common in Finland (my haplotype). There are also place names that Norway and Western Finland seem to have in common. There are rivers called Rauma and Aura in Norway, and Satakunta in Finland has a town called Rauma and just south of Satakunta is a river called Aura that goes through the city of Turku (Åbo in Swedish). There is also a town/village called Aura along that river. According to the dictionary, aure means a trout in Norwegian. In Satakunta, there is a lake called Aure.

    Comment


    • #3
      Do Rauma and Aura have meaning in Finnish or Swedish?

      Originally posted by Eki
      If you compare the haplotypes at http://www.yhrd.org/index.html , you'll notice that the most common haplotype in Southern Norway and Oslo is the third most common in Finland (my haplotype). There are also place names that Norway and Western Finland seem to have in common. There are rivers called Rauma and Aura in Norway, and Satakunta in Finland has a town called Rauma and just south of Satakunta is a river called Aura that goes through the city of Turku (Åbo in Swedish). There is also a town/village called Aura along that river. According to the dictionary, aure means a trout in Norwegian. In Satakunta, there is a lake called Aure.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Noaide
        Do Rauma and Aura have meaning in Finnish or Swedish?
        Not as far as I know. The Finnish linguists claim that river Aura comes from an ancient Germanic word meaning a vein, the same as the name of river Oder in Germany comes from, but I don't believe them. Although, in Finnish aura means a plough, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the river.

        There's also the Finnish word for a town/city kaupunki that resembles the old Norse word kaupang. The Swedish call towns stad after the German word stadt.

        Comment


        • #5
          There's a society called Society of Nordish Physical Anthropology. The black background of the pages looks suspicious, but they claim the site is not politically inclined and that the goal is just to revitalize the study of northern European physical types, their origins and history. I haven't noticed any Nazi or other white supremist propaganda on the pages, so I take their word for it. The pages have lots of links to scientific articles about DNA and they have even reproduced Coon's pre-WW2 work on anthropology on the internet. If one looks at the information without any political passions, one might find some useful pieces of information there:

          http://www.nordish.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            Has Coon ever "upgraded" his maps? It seems to me they're by far more accurate than the last Coon's maps I saw

            Comment


            • #7
              Haure

              Eki,

              I belive the Finnish lake name Aure is an old Saami word "haure" (modern Saami "Javre") simply meaning "Lake". It is well known that both Norwegian, Swedes and Finns have adopted old Saami names for landscapes and places from earlier Saami territories.

              Noaide

              "Extremely interesting is the fact that there are lake names in the Saami territories, for example, in the north of Sweden, which not only end in the basic element -jaure (jávri) (‘lake’), but in some cases also in -haure (-hávrre): Pieskahaure (Bieskehávrre), Sallohaure (Sállohávrre), Satihaure (Sádishávrre), Virihaure (Virihávrre).8 These cases are quite reminiscent of lake names in the Oka Basin -(V)xra, -(V)xro etc. Thus, it cannot be excluded that in the Merya territory the element Jaxr(V)-, Jagr(V)-; -(V)xra, -(V)xro etc. could have older roots than has been thought. .."

              http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/slav/nwru...f/Ahlqvist.pdf


              Originally posted by Eki
              Not as far as I know. The Finnish linguists claim that river Aura comes from an ancient Germanic word meaning a vein, the same as the name of river Oder in Germany comes from, but I don't believe them. Although, in Finnish aura means a plough, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the river.

              There's also the Finnish word for a town/city kaupunki that resembles the old Norse word kaupang. The Swedish call towns stad after the German word stadt.

              Comment


              • #8
                It's possible, but I find it odd that it only appears in Satakunta and Norway, and that aure in Norwegian means a trout and aur means rubble (that is also found in rivers and lakes). Looking at the map I have, I notice there are several places in Norway that begin with aur-, for example Aura, Aurdalsseter, Aure (2 of them), Aurlandsfjorden, Aurlandsvangen, Aursjøen, Aursjøhytta, Aursmoen and Aursunden.

                Originally posted by Noaide
                Eki,

                I belive the Finnish lake name Aure is an old Saami word "haure" (modern Saami "Javre") simply meaning "Lake". It is well known that both Norwegian, Swedes and Finns have adopted old Saami names for landscapes and places from earlier Saami territories.

                Noaide

                "Extremely interesting is the fact that there are lake names in the Saami territories, for example, in the north of Sweden, which not only end in the basic element -jaure (jávri) (‘lake’), but in some cases also in -haure (-hávrre): Pieskahaure (Bieskehávrre), Sallohaure (Sállohávrre), Satihaure (Sádishávrre), Virihaure (Virihávrre).8 These cases are quite reminiscent of lake names in the Oka Basin -(V)xra, -(V)xro etc. Thus, it cannot be excluded that in the Merya territory the element Jaxr(V)-, Jagr(V)-; -(V)xra, -(V)xro etc. could have older roots than has been thought. .."

                http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/slav/nwru...f/Ahlqvist.pdf

                Comment


                • #9
                  I wonder if my low resolution mtDNA matches could tell something about migrations in Scandinavia. They say low resolution matches mean a common maternal ancestor within the last 1500 years. My results are as follows:

                  H Germany (2211) - 1
                  H Great Britain (301) - 1
                  H Hungary (185) - 2
                  H Ireland (1771) - 1
                  H Russia (468) - 1
                  H Scotland (856) - 1
                  H Switzerland (140) - 1
                  H United Kingdom (1480) - 1
                  H Wales (200) - 1
                  H1b Germany (2211) - 1
                  H1b Ireland (1771) - 1
                  H1b Norway (325) - 1
                  H1b Poland (804) - 1

                  Could Norway, Britain/UK, Ireland, Wales and Scotland point to Viking period Norse migrations? Rugians from Rogaland, Norway, are said to have been in Hungary and Austria during the Migration period. If they went through Germany, Poland and Switzerland, could the matches in those Central European countries result from those migrations? Could the Russian match be from a relatively recent migration from Finland to Russia?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Eki,

                    I read in an article that H1b was more frequent in East Europe.

                    Anyway FTDNA's database is not representative for whole of Europe so its difficult to make conclusions from it.

                    Noaide

                    Originally posted by Eki
                    I wonder if my low resolution mtDNA matches could tell something about migrations in Scandinavia. They say low resolution matches mean a common maternal ancestor within the last 1500 years. My results are as follows:

                    H Germany (2211) - 1
                    H Great Britain (301) - 1
                    H Hungary (185) - 2
                    H Ireland (1771) - 1
                    H Russia (468) - 1
                    H Scotland (856) - 1
                    H Switzerland (140) - 1
                    H United Kingdom (1480) - 1
                    H Wales (200) - 1
                    H1b Germany (2211) - 1
                    H1b Ireland (1771) - 1
                    H1b Norway (325) - 1
                    H1b Poland (804) - 1

                    Could Norway, Britain/UK, Ireland, Wales and Scotland point to Viking period Norse migrations? Rugians from Rogaland, Norway, are said to have been in Hungary and Austria during the Migration period. If they went through Germany, Poland and Switzerland, could the matches in those Central European countries result from those migrations? Could the Russian match be from a relatively recent migration from Finland to Russia?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Noaide
                      Hi Eki,

                      I read in an article that H1b was more frequent in East Europe.

                      Anyway FTDNA's database is not representative for whole of Europe so its difficult to make conclusions from it.

                      Noaide
                      Yes, but what exactly is East Europe? Poland and Hungary are about as east as Sweden. Norway, Denmark and Germany aren't much more western than them. Finland is more eastern than any of those countries.

                      FtDNA compares mtDNA hg-H1b with Y-DNA hg-I. They also compare H2a to Y-R1a, which is more eastern than Y-hg I:

                      http://www.familytreedna.com/hclade2.html

                      "H1b is most frequent in Eastern and Northern Europe (like Haplogroup I for the Y-DNA), and if the ancestral site was Iberia gives us an idea of the post Glacial movements beginning, perhaps, 10,000 years ago."

                      "H2a is found in its highest % in Eastern Europe and extends to central Asia. The author refers to its mimicking Y-DNA R1a, albeit at lower population frequencies."
                      Last edited by Eki; 14 July 2006, 08:32 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think you may get some clues in Tab 3 in this paper.

                        http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Loogvali2004.pdf

                        Also it seems H1 is thriving well in Norway according to this paper with a frequency of 44% in Tab 1 for above most other countries in this paper.

                        http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/15/1/19#TBL1

                        Noaide

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Noaide
                          I think you may get some clues in Tab 3 in this paper.

                          http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Loogvali2004.pdf

                          Also it seems H1 is thriving well in Norway according to this paper with a frequency of 44% in Tab 1 for above most other countries in this paper.

                          http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/15/1/19#TBL1

                          Noaide
                          Thanks for the links, Noaide.

                          Yes, it seems Norway has a lot of H1, more than Finland, and Western Russia has less than Finland. So, it seems likely that H1 has spread from west to east. Unfortunately they don't have data for Sweden.

                          http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/15/1/19/FIG2

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hey guys, Noaide and Eki, this pre ww2? Or after 1940s?( I didnt see a date ) This throws a whole new light on things as far as I am concerned. Was my b-mom actually a Norwegian? And my father the lake Anari Saami,.(.so the state says. ) I am so confussed now.
                            My paper work is taking its sweet ole time getting read, and decided on as far as what they,.. will let me have; and in the mean time I am going nuts! The more I read the more confussed I get. My mito # is MGW8c.
                            my dynatribes is still processing, or just now processing.
                            mari
                            Life is sure full of surprises
                            Hey Noaide the trout sure was ... ...fine!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mari,

                              No, I dont think you should consider yourself Norwegian quite yet based on your mtDNA result, H haplogroups is quite common among Finnic populations.

                              I checked your mitosearch, seems nothing conclusive, you better check ftdna's database, should be more info there.

                              Noaide

                              Originally posted by mari
                              Hey guys, Noaide and Eki, this pre ww2? Or after 1940s?( I didnt see a date ) This throws a whole new light on things as far as I am concerned. Was my b-mom actually a Norwegian? And my father the lake Anari Saami,.(.so the state says. ) I am so confussed now.
                              My paper work is taking its sweet ole time getting read, and decided on as far as what they,.. will let me have; and in the mean time I am going nuts! The more I read the more confussed I get. My mito # is MGW8c.
                              my dynatribes is still processing, or just now processing.
                              mari
                              Life is sure full of surprises
                              Hey Noaide the trout sure was ... ...fine!

                              Comment

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